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Castles in the air. (NEW CONCEPTS)
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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You really are onto something, Wiley.

Your findings are uncannily similar to the purported Anglo-Saxon monasteries. Most have been 'investigated' rather than excavated but even the 'known' sites like Monkwearmouth, Jarrow, Canterbury, York, produced zilch. Nothing Anglo-Saxon apart from 'fragments' of 'Saxon stone' and various human remains. Sometimes the odd coin. And yet, it is "widely agreed" they had a religious use, just as motte-and-baileys had a military/strategic function.

Some (later) castles are believed to have 'evolved' into quite comfortable, if grand, places. Not every castle was built on a pre-existing hillfort and anyway archaeologists don't know what such sites, whether 'Saxon', 'Iron Age' or earlier, were for (results of digs are "intriguing" and "frustrating"). There isn't much to go on. Roman stuff on the other hand is readily identifiable even if they resort to 'Romano-British' when in doubt.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Hatty wrote:
You really are onto something, Wiley.



Yes it's a bit out of character, not at all wacky. Must be losing my touch.
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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The official etymology of castle is "from Latin", i.e. castellum. A castellum is a blanket term, a bit like hillfort, loosely defined as a 'watchtower' or more blanket-like still, a 'fortlet'.

The idea of castle-building is supposed to have originated in France but the earliest castles (from Normandy and Brittany, or 'little Britain') are called donjons, translated as 'keep' in English. They were not part of a motte-and-bailey presumably a layout peculiar to Britain, though motte is clearly a French word. Perhaps they couldn't get their tongues round hump, heugh, hough, howe. My son and I still disagree about how to say Shrewsbury.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Hatty wrote:

The idea of castle-building is supposed to have originated in France but the earliest castles (from Normandy and Brittany, or 'little Britain') are called donjons, translated as 'keep' in English. They were not part of a motte-and-bailey presumably a layout peculiar to Britain, though motte is clearly a French word. Perhaps they couldn't get their tongues round hump, heugh, hough, howe. My son and I still disagree about how to say Shrewsbury.


Frank mapped dons and hillforts
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Auro will find dragons in these moats, Dungeons and Dragons etc.

wiki wrote:
Castle moats were usually between 3 and 30 feet deep, and they were not always filled with water. Not all moats contained water, as a simple dry, wide ditch could prove an obstacle. These were called dry moats.

In many stories, moats are filled with alligators or crocodiles. This is a myth.[2] However, moats were sometimes filled with fish or eels for food.


Poor Dragon gets labelled as myth.
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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So you are proposing that dragons, like castles, are a Norman introduction? Or invention?
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Castles in the air is really about stripping away myth.

Ishmael wrote:
Hmm... Which accords well with my alegation of years past that Norman = Roman.



In Castles Roman = Norman unless proven otherwise.
Hats wrote:

So you are proposing that dragons, like castles, are a Norman introduction? Or invention?


My position on dragons is unchanged.

Of course the elaboration of the theory leads to problems. The value of any research programme is its ability to produce new ideas to resolve these.

A spiral or a pattern of knots might be sufficient protection for a smallish manuscript containing the WORD but if the ancients were truly worried by Dragons then the countryside should be littered with massive spiral type dragon traps.

Fortunately for Wiley it is.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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So you are proposing that dragons, like castles, are a Norman introduction? Or invention?


There again Wiley is against all inventions......so I would say that

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Stirrup_Controversy

Didn't happen. Will discuss heavy cavalry later.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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The historical figure commonly associated with the invention of M and Bs' is the feared Count of Anjou, Fulk iii, also known as Fulk Nerra or Le Noir. He was called "Black", so they say, because of his savage and violent destruction of his enemies and there were plenty of those.

Probably most notorious for burning his wife at the stake in her wedding dress (nice touch) for an alleged infidelity with a farmer.....Fulk picked fights and broke oaths with all....(he put the feud into feudalism).... the resultant quarrels normally ended with more land for Fulk and rape, pillage and mass murder for those that got on his wrong side or were simply unfortunate enough to be in his way...

Somwhat surprisingly though.... Fulk turned over a new leaf in later life and spent the rest of his years in acts of astonishing pilgrimage and piety, building Abbeys everywhere and yes, vising the Holy Land in 1002, 1007 and 1038.

It only goes to show how we all mellow.

Anyway having hacked off so many and now spending so much time abroad, Fulk hit on the clever wheeze of the M and B to retain control of his land whilst he was away repenting.

The key elements are castles, time in holy land, rape destruction pillage at home. Land rights.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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If you reckon Fulk is Volk/Folk I would say you are right.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulk_FitzWarin


If you reckon like Wiley, Fulk is Fawkes... I would say that you might be taking inference too far.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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The biography of Fulk III survives in a French prose "ancestral romance", extant in a manuscript containing English, French and Latin texts, which is based on a lost verse romance. A 16th-century summary of a Middle English version has also been preserved. The work is part of the Matter of England.[34] The outline of the work is as follows. As a young boy, Fulk was sent to the court of King Henry II (1154–1189), where he grew up with the king's younger son, the future King John (1199–1216). John became his enemy after a childhood quarrel during a game of chess. As an adult, King John retained his animosity toward Fulk whom he stripped of his ancestral holdings. Fulk thereupon took to the woods as an outlaw and lived a life of adventure. The story may in fact have confused aspects of the lives of two FitzWarins, Fulk I (d. 1171) and Fulk II (d. 1197), father and son. The romance of Fulk FitzWarin is noted for its parallels to the legend of Robin Hood.[35]


The romance indeed has many parallels with Robin for example his followers are called John, Alan and Will.......

The key elements are castles, time in holy land, rape destruction pillage at home. Land rights.
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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Ooh, luvverly ...
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Whittington Castle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whittington_Castle#/media/File:Whitington_Castle.jpg

As you would expect following a game of chess, the result of which was the late King John hit Fulk with a chessboard (who says Chess is boring) and Fulk had knocked John out.....the Fulks' relationship with the monarchy was somewhat strained, however after years of feuding (why do the Fulks always feud?) in which Fulk flees to France and later returns as outlaw....and is pardoned (if you know your Robin you know the story) ....the fitz Warren family applied to King Henry III for permission to build a stone fortress in 1221.


There is a useful timeline on the castle of Wales website. http://www.castlewales.com/whittng.html


Approximately 500 BC. The site was surrounded by triple banks and ditches, and those remaining to the north and west have recently been ascribed to the Iron Age. They can be seen in the aerial photographs at the Whittington Castle website.

600. Whittington was possibly the site of Llys Pengwern (Head of the Marsh), a capital of the Welsh kingdom of Powys. The description and presumed location of Llys Pengwern match this site in contrast to the more traditional Shrewsbury, which was not surrounded by a formidable marsh.

656. The Northumbrian Saxons destroyed Llys Pengwern, home of King Cynddylan of Powys, who was buried at nearby Eglwys Bassa (Baschurch).
The manor of Whittington was granted to William of Peveril and a Norman motte and bailey earthwork castle was built within the northern end of the Iron Age fort.

1138. The castle was fortified for the empress Matilda against King Stephen

1173 The Norman leader Roger de Powys was given a grant towards the cost of repairing the castle by Henry II.

1204 King John granted the castle and manor to the Fitz-Warin family.

1221 The castle was rebuilt in stone by the Fitz-Warins under licence from King Henry III.

1223. The castle was besieged by Llywelyn ap Iorwerth of Gwynedd who was expanding his empire into Powys and the Welsh marches.

1265. Granted by Henry III to Llewelyn ap Gruffudd along with several other border strongholds.

1282. Restored to the Fulk-Warins after the final defeat of Llewelyn ap Gruffudd.

1643. The dilapidated castle was held for the King during the English civil war and was partially destroyed by the cannons of the opposing parliamentary forces. The damage was not repaired.


This is all very luvverly ......lots of gore........there is also the normal specualtion that prior to the stone castle, there was a timber M and B.....

Still....... One problem,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whittington_Castle#/media/File:Whitington_Castle.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whittington_Castle#/media/File:Whittington_Castle_gatehouse.JPG

Unless my eyes deceive me....

It's not a castle.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Chichester Castle.

As the guys have gone all Chichester, here is another installment of castles

Chichester Castle stood in the city of the same name in West Sussex (grid reference SU863052).[1] Shortly after the Norman Conquest of England, Roger de Montgomerie, 1st Earl of Shrewsbury, ordered the construction of a castle at Chichester. The castle at Chichester was one of 11 fortified sites to be established in Sussex before 1100.

ITS a Motte and Bailey at last.

Situated in the north-east corner of Chichester, the castle was protected by the city walls.
Eh?

As it was an urban castle inserted into a pre-existing settlement, buildings were probably cleared to make way for the castle.

You need to crack a few eggs to make a omelette......

Chichester Castle was of timber construction; although some timber castles were rebuilt in stone, there is no evidence that this was the case at Chichester Castle.[3]

No evidence......

Although originally built by the Earl of Shrewsbury, the Earls of Sussex owned the castle in the period 1154–1176, after which it passed into possession of the Crown.[1] Early in the 13th century, Chichester Castle was used as a court and jail.

Jail

Chichester and Oxford Castle were some of the earliest urban castles to be used for this purpose, but gradually most urban castles were also used in this way.[4]

They are jails.....?

In 1216, the castle, along with many others in southern England, such as Reigate Castle, was captured by the French. This was part of the First Barons' War against King John of England (1199–1216). The castle was recaptured by the English in the spring of 1217.[3] In the same year, Henry III ordered the castle's destruction.[1] Between 1222 and 1269, Richard, 1st Earl of Cornwall, gave the site to the order of Greyfriars for them use as the site of a friary.

Nope it's a friary

The remains of the motte are still visible today in Priory Park;[3] the motte is protected as a Scheduled Monument.[1][5]


Unfortunately the motte is much eroded........ Jesu positively flat.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chichester_Castle#/media/File:Chichester_Castle_remains.jpg


AKA Cicestriae; Priory Park

It's another castle in the air.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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This is actually starting to get interesting!

I see now that this relates to the missing "Nonesuch" Palace I've spoken of elsewhere. And of course it lends support to the entire false history thesis.
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