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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | Deer are identified as having a high maybe the highest - tolerance whilst not being 'livestock' in the traditional sense. |
I cannot help thinking there is some connection between these two facts. Just as yews are oddly on the cusp between domesticated and not, so deer are on the same odd cusp. |
The most striking common factor is ancientness, yews being widely considered a symbol of longevity and deer are the earliest 'domesticate' (reindeer herding). Their metabolism has had a long time to cope with yew at least and deer, or reindeer anyway, are clearly tolerant of toxic plants if the stories of their feasting on fly agaric are true.
Cancer Research collects yew clippings (leaves, not stems) in order to extract its taxol, originally taken from the bark of Pacific yews in the 1990s, which is used in chemotherapy. Taxol is after taxus, the Latin name for the yew family
| Researchers are also investigating the effect of Taxol on other types of tumors, such as head and neck, prostate, bladder, cervical, esophageal, thyroid and uterine cancers. Recent research is examining exactly how Taxol works to disrupt the normal function of microtubules, part of the cell’s key internal structure involved in mitosis. This work will help to develop better cancer drugs and improve Taxol and other drugs that kill cancer cells by inactivating the microtubules. |
There followed years of trying for a semi-synthetic or total synthetic manufacture of taxol after a huge ecological controversy over the Pacific yews being killed for their bark. Wiki reports on the possible role of a fungus discovered in the bark of the Pacific yew which seems to produce taxol and related compounds.
| In 1993, taxol was discovered as a natural product in a newly described endophytic fungus living in the yew tree..... However, there has been contradictory evidence for its production by endophytes, with other studies finding independent production is unlikely. |
We cannot possibly know how advanced drug testing was in the distant past but it's well-known that poisonous plants, some highy toxic e.g. wormwood, featured in treatments [see Culpepper].
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| deer are the earliest 'domesticate' (reindeer herding) |
I'm skeptical about this. Dogs are thought to be the first domesticated animal (Wiki), with sheep and goats following about 11,000 years ago.
"Although there is archaeological evidence from cave sites such as Combe Grenal and Vergisson, France that reindeer were hunted at least 45,000 years ago it is unlikely that this animal was in anyway domesticated until about 3,000 years ago, although some estimates indicate domestication took place in Eurasia 7,000 years ago. However the exact time, and by whom is of course not known and domestication may have begun at different times and places....it may be more accurate to consider reindeer as semi domesticated for many reindeer remain entirely wild, such as the large herds of caribou which continue to freely roam parts of Alaska".
http://think-differently-about-sheep.com/Reindeer_Domestication.htm
And there are further problems with this argument:
1) The circumpolar distribution of wild yew does not extend to northern Norway and Finland.
2) Similarly the southern extent of Reindeer herding barely reaches the wild yew's northern range:
http://www.barentsinfo.fi/images/reindeer.jpg
This does not preclude deer or any other cervid fatalities from eating ornamental/gardens varieties of Taxus - but this would not have occurred until modern times.
3) It is true that cervids are ruminants and have a stomach divided into four chambers, like cattle. But their diet selection and length of parts of their intestine in relation to their body sizeare quite different
http://www.thebeefsite.com/articles/2095/understanding-the-ruminant-animals-digestive-system/
I have found no studies comparing the gut flora of cattle and deer, and their abilities to digest different substances.
4) At last, some scientific testing of suspected cervid fatalities from yew have been conducted. In what is admittedly a small survey, this report discusses five cases of yew toxication in moose, seven in roe deer and two in reindeer. The reindeer deaths were from eating garden cultivars.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0188961
The report proposes that yew intoxication is underestimated as a cause of death in cervids, especially roe deer:
"During the media focus on the roe deer cases in Oslo in 2015, we received a report of a well-monitored and supplementary fed rural flock of approximately 10 individuals that was reduced by half following a single nights browsing on a nearby yew planting. Although no carcasses were detected, we suggest that this sudden flock reduction may have occurred as a result of yew intoxication."
The perceived, exaggerated tolerance in deer I think may be due to their selective inclusion of small amounts of yew in a typically varied diet (they are classed as 'concentrate selectors' along with giraffes) over thousands of years, whereas domestic cattle are 'grass roughage eaters' who would not as likely normally encounter yew from choice or farm management. For them, only incidents of extreme hunger would compel them to seek out yew.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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I agree that 'small amount' is key. Wormwood, whether in animal feed, Greek athletes' wine or gin, was added in minute quantities as with any potentially harmful plant.
If yews have any medicinal benefits, the likelihood is they'd have been grown in excluded areas, not on common land. No-one seems sure how old yews are though if they predate churchyards as is often claimed that puts them back to the twelfth century. The age of the monasteries.
Dogs may turn out to be the first domesticate but not the first semi-domesticate (hence domesticate was in quotes). Dogs have various uses but cannot supply all your needs.
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Boreades
In: finity and beyond
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| Wile E. Coyote wrote: | Nice site design.
Keep it up. |
WTF is going on? No critical comments? You bastards.
Try this then:
Celtic Confusions
http://grael.uk/confusions
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Boreades
In: finity and beyond
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| Hatty wrote: | | No-one seems sure how old yews are though if they predate churchyards as is often claimed that puts them back to the twelfth century. The age of the monasteries.. |
Did the monasteries bring the yews with them?
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| Boreades wrote: |
WTF is going on? No critical comments? You bastards.
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Afraid I am trapped in my own bubble. I need to read a whole series of your posts to get into your mindset again to properly criticise. I did find it strange that in your post on Brexit you had not tackled the Diocletian reforms, the splitting of the empire, the use of Augustii and Caesars, (where this fits in with usurpers) but resolved that either you or most likely I.... had missed something.
I hope this helps, but I doubt it.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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Maybe the poisonous yew protects the burials from being dug up and eaten. (err by animals)
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Monasteries were undoubtedly more interested in ewes than yews. It would make sense to bring in sheep from the Continent to improve the existing stock, or perhaps sheep-breeders.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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deer are the earliest 'domesticate' (reindeer herding)
I'm skeptical about this. Dogs are thought to be the first domesticated animal (Wiki), with sheep and goats following about 11,000 years ago. |
Please do not use the I-word when you really mean the they-word.
| Although there is archaeological evidence from cave sites such as Combe Grenal and Vergisson, France that reindeer were hunted at least 45,000 years ago |
That’s a good start. Ask the archaeologists how they can tell the difference between hunted reindeer (hunter/gatherer style) and ‘followed’ reindeer (proto-Lappish style).
it is unlikely that this animal was in anyway domesticated until about 3,000 years ago, although some estimates indicate domestication took place in Eurasia 7,000 years ago.
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A real AE giveaway. “It is unlikely†cannot be true if other experts have come up with a figure more than twice that. However, when two sets of experts come up with two wildly different 'estimates' it is clear that nobody knows, or even half-knows. Not so long ago--before they were politically fashionable--the Lapps were considered medieval in origin on the grounds that that was when they first appeared in the written records!
| However the exact time, and by whom is of course not known and domestication may have begun at different times and places....it may be more accurate to consider reindeer as semi domesticated for many reindeer remain entirely wild, such as the large herds of caribou which continue to freely roam parts of Alaska. |
This particular expert seems not to know that there are no domesticated reindeer anywhere. Nor for that matter entirely wild ones either. Caribou are presumably gone-feral reindeer but, it may be, they are the wild progeny of them. More work on caribou required.
And there are further problems with this argument:
1) The circumpolar distribution of wild yew does not extend to northern Norway and Finland. |
A useful tidbit. Since yew is so ubiquitous it seems possible that yew was systematically removed.
| 2) Similarly the southern extent of Reindeer herding barely reaches the wild yew's northern range: |
The case is proved since ‘barely reaches’ is another way of saying ‘precisely aligned’.
| 3) It is true that cervids are ruminants and have a stomach divided into four chambers, like cattle. But their diet selection and length of parts of their intestine in relation to their body size are quite different |
Possibly significant. It could mean that domestication/habitat interference has altered a common basic model into something else. Needs investigation.
| I have found no studies comparing the gut flora of cattle and deer, and their abilities to digest different substances. |
Bit odd. One would have thought they’d be all over this one. Careful ignoral may be present.
The perceived, exaggerated tolerance in deer I think may be due to their selective inclusion of small amounts of yew in a typically varied diet (they are classed as 'concentrate selectors' along with giraffes) over thousands of years, whereas domestic cattle are 'grass roughage eaters' who would not as likely normally encounter yew from choice or farm management. For them, only incidents of extreme hunger would compel them to seek out yew.
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The operative phrase here is ‘thousands of years’. Not then evolutionary biology in the normal sense. Of course you are saying it is the cattle that have lost their yew immunity but that would itself be something worth noting.
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Boreades
In: finity and beyond
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| Wile E. Coyote wrote: | I did find it strange that in your post on Brexit you had not tackled the Diocletian reforms, the splitting of the empire, the use of Augustii and Caesars, (where this fits in with usurpers) but resolved that either you or most likely I.... had missed something.
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That's more like it! :-)
I must humbly confess I knew nothing about the Diocletian reforms.
Did they have an effect on Britain?
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| No-one seems sure how old yews are though if they predate churchyards as is often claimed that puts them back to the twelfth century. |
I intend to deal with this but yews are not straightforward.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| aurelius wrote: |
I intend to deal with this but yews are not straightforward...... |
That's normally seen as being a bad omen around here...........if it's not simple, obvious, straightforward etc it starts a panic in the ranks..........
You might think it's a yew type problem.....I have might doubts..... your ancient isn't like your modern going to plant a tree in a soil where it won't thrive.......would they?
There again given that Wiley is going for circular time and space maybe I should be more enthusiastic....
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Wile wrote:
aurelius wrote:
| I intend to deal with this but yews are not straightforward...... |
That's normally seen as being a bad omen around here...........if it's not simple, obvious, straightforward etc it starts a panic in the ranks..........
You might think it's a yew type problem.....I have might doubts..... your ancient isn't like your modern going to plant a tree in a soil where it won't thrive.......would they? |
I thought we had mostly agreed that measuring the age of yews was difficult a) because of the way they hollow out and b) - you may not know about this - their ability to spread by branch layering or send down a branch into the shell which can become a new trunk c) their ability to regrow from an ancient root (this which other trees may be able to do) and d) shortage of documentary proof of when any type of tree with great longeivity beyond the seventeenth century can be provided. For example Magna Carta is said to have been signed following a gathering under an ancient yew which still exists, and if tradition is correct must have been pretty old even in 1215.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankerwycke_Yew
I have been reading Fred Hageneder who is the nearest I have so far found to an expert on yews in Europe. He has a source which found an unbroken tree ring sequence in a specimen in Turkey of 426 years from 1572 to 1998. The probe showed an average growth rate of 0.461mm ring width. Based on an average growth rate during its rest of its lifetime the age of the tree would be about 2,380 years. This is still short of the record-holding Bristlecone Pine of course, which has the oldest known individual of any species at over 5,000 years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristlecone_pine#Oldest_living_organisms
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Yewtymology (2: World)
The etymology of yew is rich in historical and mythological associations and potential for speculation. The oldest known word for yew is the Hittite eya, for example used where their cuneiform tablets record the king receiving gifts of prosperity under the sacred tree.
The word for the yew in modern Europe has two main themes:
1. The Latinised word: teix (Catalan), taxus (Dutch, from the days of the Spanish Netherlands), teixo (Galician), tasso (Italian), tejo (Spanish). ‘Tax’ is close to ‘tox’/toxic, toxon being Greek for ‘bow’ so here the tree may be being described by its poisonous character. However ‘tax’ as in taxation or taxonomy means ‘charge’ or ‘arrangement’ so this could even refer to the yew stave ‘tax’ introduced with the Statute of Westminster in 1472, which required for "...every tun-tight of merchandise’....’four bowestaffes to be brought" by vessels trading with Britain. Linneaus wrote in Latin and published his Species Plantarum, the first consistent system of binomial nomenclature, in1753 - about 150 years after the collapse of the yew stave trade in Europe.
2. The rest: in Danish, Icelandic and West Frisian the word is the same as in English but in Danish the w is pronounced as a "v". Eibe or ifenbaum is used in German, ivis in Breton, if in French, idegran (yew fir) in Swedish, jugapuu (I’ll warrant the suffix is ‘tree’) in Estonian and Latvian. In Russian, Macedonian, Slovakian, Czech, Polish and Bulgarian the word-sound, if not the spelling, is either “chis†or “tis.†In Slovenian, Romanian and Croatian it is the same as the other Slavic tongues except with an ‘a’ ending. In Georgian it is იუვე, pronounced "iuve"; in Armenian, Յու, pronounced "wu".
Many of these may well derive from a common Indo-European root, the stone-age ‘iug’, to join/link...the heavens with the underworld? A Yggdrasil indeed.
Even further afield, the word sounds in Hindi, Tamil, Khmer, Indonesian, Thai, Korean, Tagalog (Phillipines), Sundanese (Malayo-polynesian with many speakers in Java), are much the same as they are in English. The Japanese pronounciation of yew sounds to me like "eyeguhu" (try Google Translate) and "eyeguhu" is very close to ‘iug’. These words/voicings are all spoken in countries within the natural range of yew. Surely the similarity is not all down to the pervasiveness of English.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| aurelius wrote: | | ‘Tax’ is close to ‘tox’/toxic, |
Yes it is....interesting.
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