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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Our own beloved trickster, Wiley, has already linked hares to Hermes the Trickster. Rather unexpectedly when looking up someone or other's charter I read that hares were vermin in medieval times. Presumably that means even commoners were allowed to hunt /trap hares but probably not encouraged in mining areas. (Perhaps the tinners' 3-hares carvings signified something like 'No hare-coursing here', the medieval equivalent to 'Danger' signs by the firing ranges on Dartmoor)
Rabbit meat was a luxury but monasteries ruled that baby rabbits didn't count as meat and could be eaten on fish-only days. The nursery rhyme Baby Bunting is quite explicit about hiding/disguising a new-born rabbit though whether it belongs to the Ancient or Modern section is moot. As yet.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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A bit off topic but I don't think Auro's disgorging Green Man... is a green man at all. Despite the commentary ("but the face is a distinctly human one and the man is wearing a hat!" )
It's an ape.
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| Wile E. Coyote wrote: | A bit off topic but I don't think Auro's disgorging Green Man... is a green man at all. Despite the commentary ("but the face is a distinctly human one and the man is wearing a hat!" )
It's an ape. |
They couldn't get the staff you know. What do you make of the "floral design" to the left of it? None of the sites make a guess but it looks like a badly sculpted, sideways on fleur de lis to me.
| The fleur de lys is a recognised symbol of the City of Lincoln | |
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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I presume that the sculptured figures are reinterpreting/reflecting those entwined designs that you would find in the margins of illuminated manuscripts.....
But I aint sure.
You would have thought we might have had an expert on manuscripts. If so he will probably declare this as complete nonsense.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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No I ain't gonna budge. I am going to sit in the middle of my mosaic and refuse to move. Probably because it's a maze and I am lost.
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| Wile E. Coyote wrote: | I presume that the sculptured figures are reinterpreting/reflecting those entwined designs that you would find in the margins of illuminated manuscripts...
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The one place (little) Green Men are vanishingly rare is in the margins of illuminated manuscripts - I just found one or two:
There are plenty of dragons, composite creatures, daft human antics, etc. in the margins of mss; perhaps editors drew the line at the Greenies for some reason. A few days ago I may have written, "the one place I haven't seen a Green Man is on a font" though.
In church architecture the image is invariably only a head. When you come across a whole figure the impression is close to that parallel motif, the 'wild man'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_man
The green knight and 'green George' are also related. The link between Green George and our current patron saint, foisted onto us by Edward III is nicely argued here:
http://www.authorsden.com/visit/viewarticle.asp?id=16882
If St Edmund was still taken seriously in the time of Edward it is not hard to speculate as to why St George would not have been the more
attractive option to the militaristic king.
...and to keep just about on topic I choose the following excerpt:
The ancient origin of the Day is indicated by the many Estonian customs associated with it. According to Hiiemäe, “more than one tenth of the reports concerning St. George’s Day customs in Estonia, have something to do with snakes. One would think that the image of George slaying the dragon would render snakes as the counterpart of evil. However, it is to the contrary in Estonian lore. The snakes, according to Hiiemäe, are “used in repelling and preventive magic to help the cattle thrive and people fare well and also to cure people’s diseases…â€(12)It would appear that snakes are not indicative of evil but of good—as long as the snake used in ritual was killed before St. George’s Day.
Various other traditional rituals of Estonia and Eastern Europe have played some part in the creation of St. George’s Day. Hiiemäe notes, “interesting reports come from North-East Estonia where the cattle-magic practiced on St. George’s Day has merged with some traits of a woman’s holiday dating back to the tribal eraâ€.(13)Other pagan holidays/festivals that have merged with St. George’s Day include Ploughing Day and the Shedding of Yellow Leaves.
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Edward III founded the Order of the Garter either 1344 or 1348. Green George-Order of the Garter-Gawain & the Green Knight:
| Medieval scholars have pointed to a connection between the Order of the Garter and the Middle English poem, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. In Gawain, a girdle, very similar in its erotic undertones to the garter, plays a prominent role. A rough version of the Order's motto also appears in the text. It translates from Old French as "Accursed be a cowardly and covetous heart."[8] While the author of that poem remains disputed, there seems to be a connection between two of the top candidates and the Order of the Garter. Scholar J. P. Oakden has suggested that it is someone related to John of Gaunt, 1st Duke of Lancaster, and, more importantly, a member of the Order. Another competing theory is that the work was written for Enguerrand de Coucy, seventh Sire de Coucy. The Sire de Coucy was married to King Edward III's daughter, Isabella, and was given admittance to the Order of the Garter on their wedding day."[9] |
Hatty wrote:
| Our own beloved trickster, Wiley, has already linked hares to Hermes the Trickster. |
In passing I discovered this, with the revelation that the hares could be found at various points along the Silk Route and even on a Jewish grave stone:
https://hyperallergic.com/311482/the-mystery-of-the-three-hares-motif/
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| aurelius wrote: | | Wile E. Coyote wrote: | I presume that the sculptured figures are reinterpreting/reflecting those entwined designs that you would find in the margins of illuminated manuscripts...
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The one place (little) Green Men are vanishingly rare is in the margins of illuminated manuscripts - I just found one or two:
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Symbols reflect what one believes, so (as I expected) I have already found what I need........ to keep it as a line of inquiry.
Still, your post helps me a bit, and so thanks for looking.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| According to Alcaeus he was the son of Gaia and Oceanus |
It is not suggested Oceanus was a disgorger,
but by the time the Mildenhall platter was made there can be no doubt of the foliateness of his beard:
This is so beautiful, I could look at it again and again. According to Wiki, the Chi-Rho symbol appears on some of the Mildenhall pieces.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| aurelius wrote: | | According to Alcaeus he was the son of Gaia and Oceanus |
It is not suggested Oceanus was a disgorger,
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That will be orthodoxy's second line of defence.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| Another competing theory is that the work was written for Enguerrand de Coucy, seventh Sire de Coucy. The Sire de Coucy was married to King Edward III's daughter, Isabella, and was given admittance to the Order of the Garter on their wedding day."[9] |
The de Courcys are always worth a look -- a most mysteriously influential dynasty. I once played bridge with one of their modern descendants though that is not why they are important. I recommend Barbara Tuchman's A Distant Mirror for them though the book -- and all Tuchman's books -- are worth reading in any case.
Also the true importance of Gawain and The Green Knight never gets given proper treatment -- especially who the author is. The usually accepted story of the poet-murderer being fairly unbelievable. There is a possibility -- I agree no more than that -- that the entire Arthurian Cycle stems from this and all the other stuff is forgery.
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Mick Harper wrote
| The de Courcys are always worth a look -- a most mysteriously influential dynasty. |
| I recommend Barbara Tuchman's A Distant Mirror for them though the book -- and all Tuchman's books -- are worth reading in any case. |
Noted.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| Green Wiki wrote: |
Usually referred to in works on architecture as foliate heads or foliate masks, carvings of the Green Man may take many forms, naturalistic or decorative. The simplest depict a man's face peering out of dense foliage. Some may have leaves for hair, perhaps with a leafy beard. Often leaves or leafy shoots are shown growing from his open mouth and sometimes even from the nose and eyes as well. In the most abstract examples, the carving at first glance appears to be merely stylised foliage, with the facial element only becoming apparent on closer examination. The face is almost always male; green women are rare. |
So there are women.
| Green Wiki wrote: |
Julia, Lady Raglan applied the term "Green Man" to this type of architectural feature in her 1939 article "The Green Man in Church Architecture" in The Folklore Journal.[3] It is thought that her interest stemmed from carvings at St. Jerome’s Church in Llangwm, Monmouthshire.[4] |
So the idea stems from 1939 and Lady R was interested in folklore. A recent paradigm that quickly became orthodox.
| Green Wiki wrote: |
Some commentators conflate or associate the term with "Jack in the Green".[5] Green cats, lions, and demons are also found. On gravestones and other memorials, human skulls are sometimes shown sprouting grape vines or other vegetation, presumably as a symbol of resurrection (as at Shebbear, Devon, England).[citation needed] |
It appears that Lady Raglan was only interested in men.
| Green Wiki wrote: |
The Green Man appears in many forms, with the three most common types categorized as:
the Foliate Head: completely covered in green leaves
the Disgorging Head: spews vegetation from its mouth
the Bloodsucker Head: sprouts vegetation from all facial orifices (e.g. tear ducts, nostrils and mouth)[6][7]
Churches[edit]
Superficially the Green Man would appear to be pagan, perhaps a fertility figure or a nature spirit, similar to the woodwose (the wild man of the woods), and yet he frequently appears, carved in wood or stone, in churches, chapels, abbeys and cathedrals, where examples can be found dating through to the 20th century. The earliest example of a green man disgorging vegetation from his mouth is from St. Abre, in St. Hilaire-le-grand, c. 400 AD.[8] |
I am bemused why this classification is significant, or the reason behind it. Just as why women and, more importantly, cats (surely not cats!) are excluded.....I would have thought that the disgorging is easier to sculpt (?)
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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I have been blown off course, shipwrecked, and then discovered Aion who to be quite honest I had never heard of unlike Khronos....
Anyway
| wiki wrote: | | Aion (Greek: Αἰών) is a Hellenistic deity associated with time, the orb or circle encompassing the universe, and the zodiac. The "time" represented by Aion is unbounded, in contrast to Chronos as empirical time divided into past, present, and future.[1] He is thus a god of eternity, associated with mystery religions concerned with the afterlife, such as the mysteries of Cybele, Dionysus, Orpheus, and Mithras. In Latin the concept of the deity may appear as Aevum or Saeculum.[2] He is typically in the company of an earth or mother goddess such as Tellus or Cybele, as on the Parabiago plate.[3] |
Aion is often represented as a young man but can also be imagined as old, think of a snake or serpent that sheds its skin and rejuvenates. The circular symbols represent cyclical time...
Some strands have him with a female consort Aeternitas. Both are depicted on Roman Coinage. In one she holds a cornucopia......
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornucopia#/media/File:Peter_Paul_Rubens_-_Abundance_(Abundantia)_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg
Note the disgorging........
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| The earliest example of a green man disgorging vegetation from his mouth is from St. Abre, in St. Hilaire-le-grand, c. 400 AD |
Oh yeah?
| The church dates back to the 11th century, and was consecrated in 1049 | |
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