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The Serpent's Tale (History)
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aurelius



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On topic yet simultaneously reminding us of another hot topic. Yes the beaten C13th dragon is entirely consistent with everything else I have found from that period. The other details you list (from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stow_Minster) raise all sorts of questions which I shall have to ponder tomorrow, probably!
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aurelius



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The Drowning of Sundaland

Geographers place the drowning of Southeast Asia (and globally) in three pulses (rather than a gradual rise, which would have been barely perceptible to each generation) over a period of some 16,000 years to 4,200 BP. They base this theory on multiple sediment cores, sea level reconstructions from coral reefs and the mapping of ancient drainage channels across the shelf. The depth of the Sunda shelf rarely exceeds 50 metres (164 feet) and much of it lies less than 20 metres below the present sea level making it particularly sensitive to changes in sea level. Dogger Bank is within the same range. The average depth of the Persian Gulf: 50 metres. These floors are as nothing compared with the average quoted depth of the oceans, 3,688 metres (12,100 feet), let alone the oceanic trenches.

https://www.ocean-sci-discuss.net/12/863/2015/osd-12-863-2015.pdf

The geographers’ model shows the first two pulses had peaked just before another started but the third eventually fell below maximum to present day sea levels, albeit still much higher than the peak of the second pulse. On this basis, Borneo was separated from Sumatra about 10,200 BP (Before Present), Sumatra from the Malay Peninsula about 9,700 BP.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_C2MnztgYQ

However, 50/16,000 is only 0.003 metres per year. Even with ‘pulsing’ the rise is hardly rapid enough to be catastrophic, which the diaspora theories (orthodox and Oppenheimian) would seem to require. Did the peoples migrate merely abandon the lowlands because a rise in population made their homeland unsustainable?

Of course, we don’t know from what starting point this rise in sea level began. It is reasonable to suspect it was from a level below the shelf. Though we don’t know how far below, the greater the original depth, the more dramatic the effect. The continental rise is much steeper and deeper than the shelf, varying between 2,000 and 4,000 metres. 3,000/16,000 would represent 0.2 metres per year, or nearly 4 metres in a generation. This would be quite alarming, especially if pulsed.



Any rises in sea level during this period are attributed to the retreat from the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) in particular the collapse of the Laurentide and Fennoscandian ice sheets. It has to date, as far as I am aware, not been proven by calculation whether these were subject to a uniformitarian-type of thaw or something more catastrophic. All my instincts say it is the latter.

Next: Paradise East
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Wile E. Coyote


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aurelius wrote:

I humbly submit Exhibit B
http://www.danstopicals.com/runestones4.htm
clarified by the stamp above clearly showing a dragon head



Is it a ship that symbolically for the purpose of a message is being made to look like a Dragon....

Or a actual representation of a Dragon Ship?
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aurelius



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Neither of us can prove the other wrong. But friend, if you want to translate Ormen consistently as 'oarsmen' you have to also explain - and I quote from my post in Dark Age Obscured -

The most widely known places associated with dragons include Ormskirk in Lancashire, which yields what is at first sight the incongruous meaning, ‘serpent’s church’. The Great Orme in North Wales is figured to be the dragon-shape of the headland, presumably as seen by sailors on their approach. Worm’s Head, the tidal promontory off the Gower offers a distinctly serpentine silhouette, and Mick and Hatty have drawn to our attention to Ormesby St Margaret and Ormesby St Michael on the Norfolk coast.


The Great Oar? Surely not.
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Wile E. Coyote


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aurelius wrote:
Neither of us can prove the other wrong.


Quite and further I am prepared to concede that you are right on all points within your own method of tackling this. At what point a linked series of reasonable inferences as part of a chain become ridiculous is very much down to the individual.

For me it crosses a red line when there is no archaeology to back it up, but that doesn't stop me speculating on the ideas of others or breaking my own rules, which I do frequently, when I can't crack a problem the normal way. You might have noticed that I tend to be harder on Orthodoxy for anomalies rather than on Wiley's own, I do this as they have had hundreds of linear years to sort this out, so logically need to be much more accurate.

I appreciate other radicals (like yourself) have more consistent ways of working.....


The most widely known places associated with dragons include Ormskirk in Lancashire, which yields what is at first sight the incongruous meaning, ‘serpent’s church’. The Great Orme in North Wales is figured to be the dragon-shape of the headland, presumably as seen by sailors on their approach. Worm’s Head, the tidal promontory off the Gower offers a distinctly serpentine silhouette, and Mick and Hatty have drawn to our attention to Ormesby St Margaret and Ormesby St Michael on the Norfolk coast.


I have previously talked about the relationship between ships and churches used as landmarks so I don't find this strange, at all......likewise this seems another case of George Michael (err the saints not the singer) and the Dragon.

Orthodoxy
Both the Great and Little Ormes have been etymologically linked to the Old Norse words urm or orm that mean sea serpent (the English word worm is transliterated from the same term). The Great Orme being the head, with its body being the land between the Great and Little Ormes. The Vikings left no written texts of their time in North Wales raiding the area which lacks evidence to date of any settlements, unlike the evidence on the Wirral Peninsula narrowly east of the border of Wales. Still some Norse names remain in use within the former Kingdom of Gwynedd (such as Point of Ayr near Talacre).

Despite there being a theory for the origin of the name "Orme", the word was not commonly used until after the creation of the Victorian resort of Llandudno in the mid-19th century. Prior to this, Welsh names were predominantly used locally and in cartography to name the headland's landward features and the surrounding area. The entire peninsula on which Llandudno was built was known as the Creuddyn (the medieval name of the cwmwd – a historical division of land in Wales); the headland itself was called Y Gogarth or Pen y Gogarth; its promontories were Pen trwyn, Liech and Trwyn y Gogarth.

Orme only appears to have been applied to the headland as seen from the sea. In 1748, Plan of the Bay & Harbour of Conway in Caernarvon Shire by Lewis Morris the map boldly shows names the body of the peninsula "CREUDDYN" but applies the name "Orme's Head" to the headland's north-westerly seaward point.[3] The first series Ordnance Survey map (published in 1841 and before the establishment of Llandudno) follows this convention. The headland is called the "Great Orme's Head" but its landward features all have Welsh names.[4] It is likely that Orme became established as its common name due to Llandudno's burgeoning tourist trade because a majority of visitors and holidaymakers regularly arrived by sea. The headland being the first thing to be sighted of their destination in the three-hour journey from Liverpool by paddle steamer.


Symbols are graphical representations of what you believe.

My idea is that Ormes might signify ship burials in the life cycle of a mythical beast is, err, work in progress. So don't allow me to take you down a false trail. Gods Speed etc
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aurelius



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Oarsome.

Although 'Ormen' is a village in present-day southern Norway, it is only picked up by the translator as Swedish. Translates as 'snake'.

Presumably used by Bowie for his 'Villa of Ormen' line in Blackstar.
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aurelius



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Hatty quoted (regards Stow):

The present font of the thirteenth century is remarkable in that none of its carved decorations (which include a pentangle and a ‘green man’) is a specifically Christian symbol, with the possible exception of the dragon – perhaps that old serpent of the devil – lying very much defeated at its foot.


Wiki says:

Both fonts and baptisterys were often octagonal (eight-sided). Saint Ambrose wrote that fonts and baptistries were octagonal "because on the eighth day,[a] by rising, Christ loosens the bondage of death and receives the dead from their graves".[2][1] Saint Augustine similarly described the eighth day as "everlasting... hallowed by the resurrection of Christ".[2][3]


Octagonal fonts may be common, but this decoration is highly unusual. Green men are everywhere in churches and cathedrals, dragons to some extent, but I have not found either on fonts before. Their normal habitat is on corbels, bosses and on roofs. I shall be touching on Green Men later in this thread - like the dragons, their function evolved through time. This one is representative of the disgorging as opposed to the foliate Man.



More on the font here:
http://greatenglishchurches.co.uk/html/stow-in-lindsey.html

Looks like the leaf carvings below the bowl were damaged or truncated to allow the addition of the eight additional supporting pillars. It has been cobbled together.

Now if anyone can find a sheela na gig on a font...
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Hatty
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I don't believe a word about octagonal fonts representing the eighth day of Christ's rising (anyway, wasn't the third day the biggie?)

As we noted elsewhere on the site, toll-posts are often octagonal. They also come in other shapes but octagonal, to me, suggests 'all directions' as per the points of the compass, which is handy when you have to keep a look out.

The green man is like the other bogey-men, and women, variations of the trickster figure. They are all-seeing and bad things will happen if you try to avoid paying your dues, which in the case of fonts, wells and springs are presumably water-dues.
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Wile E. Coyote


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aurelius wrote:


The present font of the thirteenth century is remarkable in that none of its carved decorations (which include a pentangle and a ‘green man’) is a specifically Christian symbol,


Can anybody name a specifically christian symbol? Wiley cant.
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Wile E. Coyote


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Hatty wrote:

The green man is like the other bogey-men, and women, variations of the trickster figure. They are all-seeing and bad things will happen if you try to avoid paying your dues


Hatty wrote:
PS. Nothing personal, Wiley! You're more of a trickster.


Eh?
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Wile E. Coyote


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I do rather like Auros spot.

"You know holy one, that we have started to find hidden pagan green men carved into the very fabric of the sacred churches"........

"Yes, damn those pagan stone workers"

"Well they are now becoming bolder they are carving them on the fonts"

"Jesu this is becoming serious..err....you would have thought we would noticed?"

"They are extremely cunning tricksters... holy one"

"Damn these pagan tricksters"
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Hatty
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It's not just the font that perplexes historians and archaeologists. Stow's 'Head Minster' itself appears to run counter to the so called historical record

In the second half of the twelfth century the Saxon chancel was replaced by a much larger one in the rich late Norman style. It is so unusually luxurious for a parish church that it needs explaining.

The explanation offered is that

building it was part of a plan to make Stow into a much more important centre, with four annual markets and a lot of development. In Saxon times there had been an annual market at Stow, and it looks as if the prosperity of this market depended upon the importance of the church as a Head Minster.

But building a church to create a prosperous market centre clearly didn't work
However if this was not the motive for the new chancel, it was not enough to make Stow prosperous; the place failed to grow, the markets were removed to Marton, and the great chancel vault eventually fell down.


Interestingly, despite the absence of Anglo-Saxon remains, archaeologists found Roman tile fragments and what 'is believed to be' the earlier stone church [undated!]. Finally it's acknowledged that more digging is needed

It should be noted that the early history of the church is not as straightforward as it might appear from this account, and many historians and scholars might well disagree in parts.
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Mick Harper
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I shall be touching on Green Men later in this thread - like the dragons, their function evolved through time. This one is representative of the disgorging as opposed to the foliate Man.

I too investigated Green Men but kept being disappointed because all the yap about how ancient they were always petered out into "Don't they sort of remind you of..." territory. So I lost interest. Now I am reasonably excited about how modern they are!
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Hatty
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That's the case as well for other architectural flourishes associated with churches but also castles, like sheela na gigs (mainly Irish). Or even the tinners' dancing hares (mainly Dartmoor). The patron saint of hares, St Melangell, is really late... 15th century.
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Mick Harper
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That's more radical than I had envisaged. Let's go for it! We'll call it Ancient & Modern with a slash through the ampersand.
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