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The Serpent's Tale (History)
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Wile E. Coyote


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Hatty wrote:

Did Sylvester I exist?


Hatty wrote:

Did Sylvester II invent his predecessor?


If he didn't exist you would need to invent him? It's intriguing given Sylvester 11 biography.

Sylvester two is really a leading mathematicial genius of his day, also involved with astronomy, astrology and the reintroduction of the Armillillary sphere.

Gerbert learned of Hindu–Arabic digits and applied this knowledge to the abacus, but probably without the numeral zero.[n 2] According to the 12th-century historian William of Malmesbury, Gerbert got the idea of the computing device of the abacus from a Spanish Arab.[citation needed] The abacus that Gerbert reintroduced into Europe had its length divided into 27 parts with 9 number symbols (this would exclude zero, which was represented by an empty column) and 1,000 characters in all, crafted out of animal horn by a shieldmaker of Rheims.[9][19][20] According to his pupil Richer, Gerbert could perform speedy calculations with his abacus that were extremely difficult for people in his day to think through in using only Roman numerals.[9] Due to Gerbert's reintroduction, the abacus became widely used in Europe once again during the 11th century.[20]


His or rather Saint Sylvester's feast day is 31st December.

He was pope over the big 999/1000..........years landmark. (That marks the great foundation myth) and we are in the dying embers of the last "heroic" kings.

Handy, and coincidental that he was a numbers/astronomy type of pope.
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Wile E. Coyote


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If the year 1000 is to be a good imaginary Scandi starting point. You have to close down the era of heroes. What is needed a well traveled character who roams around the old heroic world sewing together the tapestry for the start of the new linear narrative, based on (and this is where anti-religionists go astray) a more "scientific" christian here and now, a paradigm that will be more predictive and productive, even if sadly less inspirational.

A Last of the Mohicans......

"The pale-faces are masters of the earth, and the time of the red-men has not yet come again...."


The white Christ replaces the red Thor.......
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Hatty
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The Megalithic Portal has posted up a series of pictures of a Viking/Slavic 'village'

An open air museum in Wolin, Zachodniopomorskie, Poland which shows experimental archaeology of an early medieval Slavic and Viking Village.

http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=44408


Turns out that Wolin is considered rather an important place. Wiki gives background details

A medieval document from the mid-9th century, called the Bavarian Geographer after its anonymous creator, mentions the Slavic tribe of Wolinians who had 70 strongholds at that time (Uelunzani civitates LXX). The town of Wolin was first mentioned in 965, by Ibrahim ibn Jakub, who referred to the place as Weltaba.

The period of greatest development during the medieval period occurred between the 9th and the 11th centuries. Around 896 AD a new port was constructed and the main part of the town acquired new, stronger fortifications, including a wooden palisade made of halved 50 centimeter wide tree trunks, a rampart and a retaining wall.

Archaeologists believe that in the Early Middle Ages Wolin was a great trade emporium, spreading along the shore for four kilometers and rivaling in importance Birka and Hedeby
.

Wood. Always wood. But Wolin's strangely ephemeral structures have not gone unremarked so why do archaeologists continue to describe it as 'a great trade emporium'?

Archaeological finds on the island are not very rich but they dot an area of 20 hectares, making it the second largest Baltic marketplace of the Viking Age after Hedeby.[citation needed] Some scholars have speculated that Wolin may have been the basis for the semi-legendary settlements Jomsborg and Vineta. However, others have rejected the identification, or even the historical existence of Jomsborg and Vineta (for example, Gerard Labuda).

Gwyn Jones notes that the size of the town was exaggerated in contemporary sources, for example by Adam of Bremen who claimed Wolin/Jomsborg was "the largest town in Europe". Archaeological excavations however have found no evidence of a harbor big enough for 360 warships (as claimed by Adam) or of a major citadel. The town was inhabited by both Slavs and Scandinavians.


The Bavarian Geographer turns out to be a medieval Latin document, "the conventional name for the anonymous author of a Latin medieval text containing a list of the tribes in central-eastern Europe, headed Descriptio civitatum et regionum ad septentrionalem plagam Danubii (Latin for Description of cities and lands north of the Danube).". It was not discovered until 1772 and 'much discussed in early 19th-century historigraphy'.

And talking of lateness

In the early 12th century the island, as part of the Pomeranian duchy, was captured by the Polish king Boleslaw III Wrymouth. Shortly after, the inhabitants of Wolin accepted Christianity, and in 1140 pope Innocent II created a diocese there, with its capital in the town of Wolin.
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Wile E. Coyote


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Here is a vid of the "last" Viking. Harold the hard ruler, who set sail in his mighty ship the Ormen (sic) (the serpent). BTW Orthodoxy seems blind to Ormen=Oarsmen. (auro?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSm8GKkQec8

It's a bit strange that he didn't learn the lesson of having heavy cavalry on his travels....but "lasts" tend to be resistant to change don't they?

For those that believe you can identify a later last Harold (bravo), you need to keep in mind that anything is only the first, last, best until another comes along. Well at least according to Harper's law, which I choose to believe until that is a better explanation is found........err.....which presumably it will.

In fact in some retellings Harold Godwinson survived Hastings.......and was still going strong in 1177, as a her(o)myth
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Wile E. Coyote


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These thousand year cycles are significant, by voting for Brexit the lower classes have really cocked it up and made our shores and rivers unsafe again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqXAYj6ha8o
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aurelius



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Wile E. Coyote wrote:
Here is a vid of the "last" Viking. Harold the hard ruler, who set sail in his mighty ship the Ormen (sic) (the serpent). BTW Orthodoxy seems blind to Ormen=Oarsmen. (auro?)


I'm afraid I am blind to the Ormen=Oarsmen too, Wile. The Viking ship classes

http://www.vikingskip.com/vikingshipclasses.htm#Skeide

include a number of serpentine names according to this Norwegian source which I think may edge Wiki's. All have different numbers of oarsmen, so why name just one after them?

Historians have found no evidence that the Anglo-Saxon boats had sails, so they may have relied exclusively on oar-power. From the paucity of examples found and claimed to be A-S, such as the Nydam boat, Gredstedbro and imprint of the Sutton Hoo boat, the Viking ships had much greater finesse and therefore superiority. There are no signs the last two examples had masts.
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aurelius



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The Spread of the Trees

Some creationists reckon Genesis was written about 1,450 BC. Mainstream theologians place it much later, between 600 and 500 BC, just before or during the Babylonian exile. Carbon dated artefacts point to the ancient kingdom of Shu, of which Sanxindui was the capital, flourishing 2,050-1,250 BC. If the creationists are correct, and they base their Old Testament dating on the Hebrew genealogies, the bronze Tree of Life was cast about the same time as the 'Yahwist' account of creation was incorporated into the Pentateuch. On this basis his account of the first Adam spread eastwards to China over no more than 600 years. On the other hand if orthodox theology is more accurate, the Yahwist passages were recorded around a thousand years after the bronze was cast.

What if the Trees of Life and Knowledge of Good & Evil myths originated in Southeast Asia? In his book Eden in the East, Stephen Oppenheimer contends that the Neolithic cultures of China, India and Mesopotamia (at least) were boosted, replaced or established by a north-western-moving diaspora from rising sea levels which inundated much of Sundaland (no typo). Around the same time, populations evacuated the low lying areas by outrigger canoe, rafts or the forerunners of the same, eastwards across the Pacific using the hundreds of tiny islands as staging posts. All that remains of Sundaland today are the islands of Indonesia and the Philippines.

The Gilbert Islands are one group of staging posts, about half way between Papua New Guinea and Hawaii:

A traditional Micronesian myth from the Gilbert Islands in the Pacific Ocean is similar to the biblical account of the fall from Eden: in the beginning of the world was a garden where two trees grew, guarded by an original being called Na Kaa. Men lived under one tree and gathered its fruit, while women lived apart from the men under the other tree. One day when Na Kaa was away on a trip, the men and women mingled together under one of the trees. Upon his return, Na Kaa told them that they had chosen the Tree of Death, not the Tree of Life, and from that time all people would be mortal.

http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Tr-Wa/Trees-in-Mythology.html#ixzz4mMlbcmM5

As we get closer to Indonesia, more of the Genesis elements are present. For instance, in the Bahnars’ immortality myth from southern Vietnam there are two trees, one representing life, where the people were wont to bury their dead to ensure they were resurrected after three days. Unfortunately over-population resulted in a lack of space and resources. A wily reptile (lizard) persuaded the gravediggers to bury the deceased under a different tree with the result that immortality is lost. That this is a Tree of Death is implied. There is no reference to a god nor a garden as such, and the lizard’s life expectancy is not considered. This latter element is, however, common to many other cultures in the region, including the Bismarcks, Samoa, Nias, Vietnam also, New Britain, the Dusuns of Borneo and the Todjo-Toradjas of Sulawesi.

Oppenheimer backs up his dispersal argument using evidence from genetics and his take on the evolution of languages in the region. His – the one I favour - is a minority view when compared with orthodoxy, mainstream theorists adhering to the ‘out of Taiwan’ model where peoples generally spread south over the same period. It will take some shifting.
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Wile E. Coyote


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aurelius wrote:
Wile E. Coyote wrote:
Here is a vid of the "last" Viking. Harold the hard ruler, who set sail in his mighty ship the Ormen (sic) (the serpent). BTW Orthodoxy seems blind to Ormen=Oarsmen. (auro?)


I'm afraid I am blind to the Ormen=Oarsmen too, Wile. The Viking ship classes

http://www.vikingskip.com/vikingshipclasses.htm#Skeide

include a number of serpentine names according to this Norwegian source which I think may edge Wiki's. All have different numbers of oarsmen, so why name just one after them?


Let's take a look. According to your source.

Serpent - Drakkar - Dragon-ship (Norwegian: "drage" / "drake" or "Orm")

In english literature several terms seem to be in use for a looser group of large viking ships. Both the terms serpents and drakkars are frequently used, and seem the be equal to the norwegian terms "drage" (drake) and "orm". Regarding the shape of the hull of a large longship and its flexibility at sea I prefer the term serpent of the two, as "orm" translates into serpent or snake. I believe this comes closest to what such a ship must have looked like in use. The norse word "orm" (old norse "orminum"), must not be confused with or translated into the english word "worm", even though dictionaries can suggest such a translation.

The serpents were usually the largest ships in the fleet of a viking king, and were supposed to stand out to symbolize his superior rank.

Calling a ship a serpent seem to have been a looser term than using the more restricted terms busse, skeide, snekke and sud. Any of these could also be called a serpent if they were equipped with an animal shaped head in the stem. Usually this head was shaped like a dragons head. Also other animal forms are known from the sagas, for example the ship "Visund" which had a bulls head (a vicent - european buffalo) in its stem. The stern could also have a dragon head or forming a dragons tail. The dragon head was not permanently fixed to the prow, but could usually be taked down for various reasons.

The sagas of Snorri Sturlason gives several examples of ships that were called both a "serpent" and one of the subclasses of longships. Among these are "Ormen Lange" (The Long Serpent) which are mentioned both as serpent and busse in different parts of the saga.


We are not allowed to throw a worm amongst the serpents. (anomaly)

Orthodoxy draws a distinction between the animal totem and the formal technical orthodox classification of ships.

You could say the dragon head, bison's head, buffalo head, appears much more like a flag or weather vane, and pass on (wind vanes evolve from being on ships to church spires (aha) as ships navigate by prominent landmarks like churches or stone circles.)

Still the nagging feeling is that the totem has meaning, and according to orthodoxy the Dragon or Dreki ships were connected with some prominent individuals.

saga of St Olaf wrote:
His dragon with her sails of blue,
All bright and brilliant to the view,
High hoisted on the yard arms wide,
Carries great Canute o’er the tide.
Brave is the royal progress — fast
The proud ship’s keel obeys the mast,
Dashes through foam, and gains the land,
Raising a surge on Limfjord’s strand. (The Song of Canute, Saga of St. Olaf)


You have it, they are King = Canute ships

Dragon=King ship.

There is just one problem, in the archaeological record there is not one preserved dragonhead that we know to have adorned a ship.

And that my friend is what Mr Harper will pick you or me up on.
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Wile E. Coyote


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Of course after the Dragon ship came the Kristsuden Kross-suden........but you don't see them in feature films.

Still Christ Cross follows Dragon was the linear evolution.
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Wile E. Coyote


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Or maybe the evolution was Crane, Dragon, Cross

saga of Olaf Tryggvason wrote:
“Then the king took the dragonship which Raud had owned, and steered it himself; for it was a much larger and handsomer vessel than the Crane.

In front it had a dragon’s head, and aft a crook, which turned up, and ended with the figure of the dragon’s tail. The carved work on each side of the stem and stern was gilded. This ship the king called the Serpent. When the sails were hoisted they represented, as it were, the dragon’s wings; and the ship was the handsomest in all Norway.”


The Crane being a wading bird are the wings sails (deep water) legs oars (shallows).

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/crane#/media/File:Bugeranus_carunculatus.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon#/media/File:Liber_Floridus_page_scan_A,_ca._1460.jpg

Cranes according to wiki in heraldry signify vigilance.
Wiki wrote:

Pliny wrote that cranes would appoint one of their number to stand guard while they slept. The sentry would hold a stone in its claw, so that if it fell asleep it would drop the stone and waken. A crane holding a stone in its claw is a well-known symbol in heraldry, and is known as a crane in its vigilance.


eternal youth/vigilance... dragon ...... rebirth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoK6weQE2xQ
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Hatty
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Neil Oliver, researching the ancestors of the Vikings, visits a prehistoric ship burial and exclaims

"It's such a Baltic Viking thing. You don't see Viking ship burials like this in France or England."

We know why.
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aurelius



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Wile E. Coyote wrote:

We are not allowed to throw a worm amongst the serpents.


Yes I know 'anomaly' should set the AE antennae twitching but I interpret the Norwegian as disliking the modern English association of 'worm' with serpent-dragon as diminishing it. Who's afraid of worms? But meaning can change over time and our language is littered with such things (e.g. 'awful', generally employed in its negative context nowadays rather than its earlier meaning of 'awe-inspiring'). Worm, as in Lambton worm, was yet to turn; it was cognate with serpent/dragon in terms of its concept to inspire fear and loathing.

in the archaeological record there is not one preserved dragonhead that we know to have adorned a ship.


This is true insofar as none has been found attached or could be proven to belong to the ship remains where it was found. Nor, so far, have any of the other prow-beasts like bulls. There are dragon heads on some of the ships on the Bayeux Tapestry though (first attested 1476 - oh dear, another can of Worms).

You quote the Saga of St Olaf (C13th mss). Your source, http://avaldsnes.info/en/viking/drakeskip/ was also one I looked at, and one can take one's pick from the sagas, this from Olaf Tryggvason is supposed to be earlier, C10th - C11th:

The ship was both long and broad and high-sided, and strongly timbered. (..) The ship was a dragon, built after the one the king had captured in Halogaland; but this ship was far larger, and more carefully put together in all her parts. The king called this ship the long Serpent, and the other the Short Serpent. The Long Serpent had thirty-four benches for rowers. The head and the arched tail were both gilt, and the bulwarks were as high as in sea-going ships. This ship was the best and most costly ship ever made in Norway.


(He is talking about the Ormen Lange, = 'Long Serpent' of 999).

Why shouldn't an adventurous, some would say warrior people class their vessels, decorate their vessels and/or name their vessels with something to inspire them at the same time as visually striking fear into the opposition? We still do it, e.g. nuclear submarines -Vanguard/Vengeance/Vigilance/Victorious. If the ships referenced the Midguard Serpent , which they believed surrounded the Earth ouroborossically, that would be braggadocio indeed.

Ørmen is a village in Fredrikstad municipality, Norway.
(Wiki)

I gather a solitary candle used to burn in the villa there...
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Wile E. Coyote


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aurelius wrote:

Why shouldn't an adventurous, some would say warrior people class their vessels, decorate their vessels and/or name their vessels with something to inspire them at the same time as visually striking fear into the opposition?


Sure..... but why shouldn't an adventurous, some would say warrior people wear horned helmets that would surely scare the locals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTLbLeow2nQ
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aurelius



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Wile E. Coyote wrote:
aurelius wrote:

Why shouldn't an adventurous, some would say warrior people class their vessels, decorate their vessels and/or name their vessels with something to inspire them at the same time as visually striking fear into the opposition?


Sure..... but why shouldn't an adventurous, some would say warrior people wear horned helmets that would surely scare the locals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTLbLeow2nQ


I humbly submit Exhibit B
http://www.danstopicals.com/runestones4.htm
clarified by the stamp above clearly showing a dragon head

Exhibit C
The blade three illustrations down on
http://www.worldtreeproject.org/exhibits/show/ships/previkingships

but would add others have claimed some of the prow beasts were attached to ward off evil spirits but I am not convinced by that.

We both know that the horned helmets are a C19th fantasy as far as the Vikings (though not necessarily other peoples) are concerned.
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Hatty
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Just came across this...

the earliest known example of Viking graffiti in England (a rough scratching of an oared Viking sailing ship, probably dating from the 10th century)

... in the process of establishing that the archaeology of Stow, an Anglo-Saxon church/ abbey/ minster (historians use a variety of descriptors) doesn't exist.

The church, or whatever, at Stow was burnt down by the Vikings/ Danes in 870 if the official story is correct. Rather odd to make a stone carving over two generations after the purported event. But it would seem there are serious misgivings abroad

The right side of the arch has been heavily restored, but the left was not touched as a memorial to the erroneous belief that the damage had been done by the Danes in 870.

A small brass plate records this belief, and also witnesses to the (now generally not accepted) theory that Stow was the ancient Sidnacester, the seat of the old bishopric of Lindsey before the Danish invasions.


The font is surely not a reflection of such a barbarous past?

The present font of the thirteenth century is remarkable in that none of its carved decorations (which include a pentangle and a ‘green man’) is a specifically Christian symbol, with the possible exception of the dragon – perhaps that old serpent of the devil – lying very much defeated at its foot.
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