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The Serpent's Tale (History)
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aurelius



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Religious dualism in Scandinavia

Iceland had agreed to be Christianised from 999/1000 AD. We would know very little about Norse mythology* prior to this tipping point if it wasn’t for the Edda works of Icelander Snorri Sturluson, written around 1220. As far as the traditional gods and heroes are concerned, he is thought to be the most authoritative of the medieval Scandinavian writers; certainly he was less hostile than Adam of Bremen and Saxo Grammaticus. How much of the back-history he faithfully recorded from the oral tradition, and how much he may have contributed himself is debateable:

Sturluson wrote at the very end of the Skaldic tradition, and his vision of Norse mythology is deeply influenced by Christian and Classical traditions. Almost everyone accepts that. Sturluslon however didn't really have very much influence on Skaldic works, coming at the end of the period as he did. His influence was more on later perceptions and derivations of the Norse mythological tradition (after it had ceased to be a living religious tradition), and his clear intention was to provide an interpretive and stylistic guide to a tradition that was rapidly transforming with the spread of Christian/Romance culture. There are much earlier sagas though that lack the deep Christian influences found in Sturluson (12th-C13th), and so provide a less altered, if patchy, picture of pre-Christian Norse beliefs.


http://www.enworld.org/forum

Not all northern European historians were as sympathetic to what had been passed down by word of mouth . Saxo (c.1150 – c.1220 AD) in particular was following an agenda to produce a militaristic, heroic, pagan-bashing history of the Danish people; propaganda, if you like, for the Baltic Crusades (Catholic Christian military orders and kingdoms against their pagan neighbours).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Crusades

From the baptism of Scandinavian kings in the 9th/10th Century (Norway, 872; Denmark, 965) to the virtual eradication of paganism in the 12th, Christianisation was slow to prevail and there was plenty of time for the two dogmas to subsist, interact and absorb elements from each other; plenty of time indeed, for dragons to survive un-demonised. This is also evident in Anglo-Saxon jewellery, where Saxonists detect and construct a progression from purely pagan symbolism (serpents and Odin images, e.g.) through mixed messages (serpents and fish symbol), or runes, Wayland and the Magi visiting baby Jesus all on the Franks casket).

* For my purposes, I am taking the orthodox position of ‘Norse’ mythology having much in common with those, such as Anglo-Saxon, on the southern shores of the Baltic, with ‘Germanic’ the term encompassing all.
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Wile E. Coyote


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aurelius wrote:


Iceland had agreed to be Christianised from 999/1000 AD.


Well spotted Auro.

That must be The Foundation Myth.

Your icelandic christian monks......must have selected 999/1000.
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Hatty
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It would be quite wrong to use the Franks casket as an example of 'Anglo-Saxon symbolism'. The casket is a one-off, an anomaly even. Nothing else like it has ever surfaced, and especially not in the 'Middle Anglo-Saxon period'.

the style of the carving and the conventions of the representations are not directly comparable to Northumbrian art of ca. 700 unless the casket is regarded as a unique surviving example of folk art of the period.

The Date and Provenance of the Franks Casket
Amy L. Vandersall

The British Museum (the casket was an unsolicited gift to the BM) certainly can't make head nor tail

Almost everything about this perplexing and ostentatiously erudite object is enigmatic, including its history. It was first recorded in the possession of a family at Auzon in the Auvergne, during which time it was dismantled. ... Its history prior to its surfacing in Auzon is unknown, though one second-hand account suggests that it came from the nearby church and cult-centre of St Julian at Brioude, from which it could have been looted at the Revolution.
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=92560&partId=1

St Julian's, Brioude, was built 11th to 14th centuries. The British Museum claim the casket is 8thC (early) and they're fairly confident the origin is some monastery or other in Northumbria
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Mick Harper
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Your icelandic christian monks......must have selected 999/1000.

On the orders of Pope Sylvester II
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Wile E. Coyote


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Nice.
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aurelius



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Mick Harper wrote:
Your icelandic christian monks......must have selected 999/1000.

On the orders of Pope Sylvester II


Ah, 'Crank Theory number two'.

I'm sure Sylvester would have been chuffed at the outcome. It seems there had been many attempts to evangelise, as elsewhere. but Wiki seems to think it was more of an internal affair:

Beginning in 980, Iceland was visited by several Christian missionaries who had little success; but when Olaf Tryggvason (who had converted in about 998) ascended to the Norwegian throne, there were many more converts, and the two rival religions soon divided the country and threatened civil war.



This state of affairs reached a high point the next summer during the meeting of the Althing (Alþingi), the Commonwealth's governing assembly. Fighting between adherents of the rival religions seemed likely until mediators intervened and the matter was submitted to arbitration. The law speaker of the Althing, Thorgeir Thorkelsson, the gothi of Ljósavatn, was acceptable to both sides as mediator, being known as a moderate and reasonable man. Thorgeir accepted responsibility for deciding whether Iceland should become Christian, with the condition that both parties abide by his decision. When this was agreed, he spent a day and a night resting under a fur blanket, contemplating.

The following day he announced that Iceland was to become Christian, with the condition that old laws concerning the exposure of infants and the eating of horseflesh would remain, and that private pagan worship be permitted. These sticking points related to long-established customs that ran contrary to the laws of the Church. Horsemeat is a taboo food in many cultures, and Pope Gregory III had banned the Germanic custom of its consumption in 732. Likewise, infanticide used to be widespread around the world, and the practice of exposing "surplus" children was an established part of old Icelandic culture. It was strongly believed that there was a limit to the number of people the island could support and that rearing too many children would bring disaster for all
.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianization_of_Iceland#Adoption_by_arbitration

Unfortunately, although the Althingy has a claim to be the oldest parliament in the world, the earliest Icelandic documents preserved are from the second half of the C12th.

https://www.nat.is/travelguideeng/icelandic_language.htm
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Mick Harper
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Unfortunately, although the Althingy has a claim to be the oldest parliament in the world, the earliest Icelandic documents preserved are from the second half of the C12th.

OK, well tell us about an earlier one.
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Wile E. Coyote


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Olaf Tryggvason (who had converted in about 998) ascended to the Norwegian throne, there were many more converts,


Olaf's ship was called the Long Serpent. He is increasingly remembered for his forced conversions......

Olaf routinely used force to compel conversions to Christianity, including executions and torture of those who refused. Several instances of Olaf's attempts led to days of remembrance amongst modern heathens similar to the feast days of martyred Christian saints. Raud the Strong (remembered 9 January) refused to convert and, after a failed attempt using a wooden pin to pry open his mouth to insert a snake, was killed by a snake goaded by a hot poker through a drinking horn into Raud's mouth and down his throat. Eyvind Kinnrifi (9 February) likewise refused and was killed by a brazier of hot coals resting on his belly.


Of course this battle between those who believed in circular and those that believed in linear versions of time was resolved in the favour of the latter (the great foundation myth).
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aurelius



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Mick Harper wrote:
Unfortunately, although the Althingy has a claim to be the oldest parliament in the world, the earliest Icelandic documents preserved are from the second half of the C12th.

OK, well tell us about an earlier one.


I presume you already know the answer, but for anyone else that is interested, the other two candidates from Western Europe are the Manx Tynwald and the Faroese Logting.

The bicameral Tynwald (Norse Ting/Thing = assembly and O.E. Weald, Germanic Wald = wood or forest) celebrated its Millennial anniversary in 1979. However,

there is no evidence indicating that such an assembly was held in 979, or that any such event resembled the modern-day court.[5][6] In fact, the first record of the place-name occurs in the 13th–14th-century Chronicle of Mann, and the first description of the role and composition of an assembly held on-site occurs in the early 15th century.


Logting = 'law assembly".

A ting or þing has existed on the Faroe Islands for over a millennium and the Løgting was the highest authority on the islands in the Viking era.


I'm not sure what 'evidence' Wiki is referring to, but

There is some evidence that the Faroes were already colonized as early as 650. The first inhabitants, who were of Celtic descent, were driven out by Norse landnamsmen in about 825. Faroese society in the Viking Age and the Middle Ages resembled the other Nordic populations in many ways. This was particularly true when it came to legislation. The most important body of law was the Gulatingslógin, an ancient Norwegian agricultural law which originated in the Gulating legislative area in Vestlandet in Norway. Originally, this law was preserved through oral tradition, but it was written down about the year 1100.


Wiki goes on:

The Faroese ting is mentioned, for the first time in the Færeyinga saga, as "the assembly", where the chieftains Sigmundur Brestisson and Tróndur í Gøtu met.

Something concrete at last?

The Færeyinga Saga, the saga of the Faroe Islands, is the story of how the Faroe Islanders were converted to Christianity and became a part of Norway.[1]


As evidence this isn't up to scratch though, because

It was written in Iceland shortly after 1200. The author is unknown and the original manuscript is lost to history, but passages of the original manuscript have been copied in other sagas, especially in three manuscripts: Óláfs saga Tryggvasonar en mesta, Flateyjarbók, and a manuscript registered as AM 62 fol.


There was an emergency in the Faroes as in Iceland

In 999, Sigmundur introduced Christianity at the ting, which was located on Tinganes, a peninsula, which is now the old part of Tórshavn, the capital of the Faroes.


- more forced conversions? The lack of contemporary documentation has not deterred historians, who argue:

However, the Faroese ting mentioned in this saga must have been a well introduced institution in the 10th century, for it was held each year and is not described as something new or unusual. Considering this, it is possible that the Faroes were explored earlier than Iceland and had the same Norse rules. It is possible that the Faroese ting is older than that of Iceland, which was founded in 930.


So the Faroese may claim to be the earliest, the Tynwald the oldest continuous and the other two dispute being the earliest. But it's only tradition.
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aurelius



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Wile E. Coyote wrote:
Olaf Tryggvason (who had converted in about 998) ascended to the Norwegian throne, there were many more converts,


Olaf's ship was called the Long Serpent. He is increasingly remembered for his forced conversions......

Olaf routinely used force to compel conversions to Christianity, including executions and torture of those who refused. Several instances of Olaf's attempts led to days of remembrance amongst modern heathens similar to the feast days of martyred Christian saints. Raud the Strong (remembered 9 January) refused to convert and, after a failed attempt using a wooden pin to pry open his mouth to insert a snake, was killed by a snake goaded by a hot poker through a drinking horn into Raud's mouth and down his throat. Eyvind Kinnrifi (9 February) likewise refused and was killed by a brazier of hot coals resting on his belly.


Of course this battle between those who believed in circular and those that believed in linear versions of time was resolved in the favour of the latter (the great foundation myth).


This information is very welcome to me, thanks, Wile.
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aurelius



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World Tree: The Knowledge of Good and Evil?

World Trees are found referenced in cultures all around the – er – world, from Eastern Europe to the Near East and Egypt, even in the Americas and Oceania. They may not necessarily be ‘trees of life’.

Of particular interest is the archaeological discovery in 1986 of a trove of some 800 bronzes in what is now Sichuan province in Southern China. Carbon-dated artefacts had already suggested a flourishing culture during the 12th – 11th Centuries BCE, now known as the Sanxingdui. This is far away from the traditional Yellow River valley source of Chinese civilisation. The trowel wielders were astonished at the metallurgical skills of these people. Among the finds recovered was a bronze tree:



A creationist site has identified the tree as representative of the 'Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil' and drawn attention to the forbidden fruit (shown dangling in (B), a serpent which winds around the trunk (shown at the base in C) and even Eve’s hand (D). The fruit has not yet been taken and the serpent still has its legs.

To reinforce the message, the leaves of this tree, which is nearly four metres tall, are fashioned as knives.

The more traditional interpretation is that the bronze depicts the Fusang, a mythological Tree of Life reputed to stand somewhere east of China; perhaps a mulberry, or hibiscus.
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Wile E. Coyote


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aurelius wrote:


This information is very welcome to me, thanks, Wile.


No problems. Keep cracking on.

BTW St Sylvester's feast date is 31st December..........

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symmachean_forgeries

The most important in this group of forgeries was Silvestri constitutum, a report of a fictitious synod convoked by Pope Sylvester, giving twenty promulgated canons, among which was a prohibition of bringing a solitary accusation upon an ecclesiastic of a degree higher than the accuser's: a bishop might only be accused by seventy-two, and a pope could not be accused by anyone. Silvestri constitutum was also an early instance of the fable that Sylvester had cured Constantine the Great of leprosy with the waters of baptism, incurring the Emperor's abject gratitude, which was elaborated and credited to the point that, in greeting Pope Stephen II in 753, Pepin II dismounted to lead the Pope's horse to his palace on foot, as Constantine would have done.[4


You don't lose anything by keeping that in your back pocket.
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Hatty
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Wile E. Coyote wrote:
BTW St Sylvester's feast date is 31st December..........

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symmachean_forgeries

The most important in this group of forgeries was Silvestri constitutum, a report of a fictitious synod convoked by Pope Sylvester, giving twenty promulgated canons, among which was a prohibition of bringing a solitary accusation upon an ecclesiastic of a degree higher than the accuser's: a bishop might only be accused by seventy-two, and a pope could not be accused by anyone. Silvestri constitutum was also an early instance of the fable that Sylvester had cured Constantine the Great of leprosy with the waters of baptism, incurring the Emperor's abject gratitude, which was elaborated and credited to the point that, in greeting Pope Stephen II in 753, Pepin II dismounted to lead the Pope's horse to his palace on foot, as Constantine would have done.

Sylvester I was said to have anointed Constantine, slain a dragon and apparently responsible for forging a viable history of Roman Christianity.

During Sylvester's pontificate, Christianity became the favored religion of the Roman emperor, after having endured centuries of intermittent persecution. Sylvester did not himself attend the First Council of Nicaea in 325, but he was represented by two legates. During his administration, Constantine founded several great churches in Rome and the Roman church grew to a position of increasing influence.

Did Sylvester I exist?

Silvester also figures in the important document known as the "Donation of Constantine," fabricated in the second half of the eighth century and purporting to record Constantine's giving Silvester (and his successor popes) imperial authority as both spiritual and secular rulers in the Western Roman Empire. The document is now universally admitted to be a forgery designed to bolster the claims of the papacy. This and other legends portrayed Constantine and Silvester in close relationship and even made the pope the deliverer of Rome from a mighty dragon.


Nothing is known of his early life or indeed of his Life. Still, in some quarters he is Saint as well as Pope Sylvester.

Did Sylvester II invent his predecessor? According to Wiki, the first written reference to the Donation of Constantine is dated 1054

The first pope to directly invoke the decree was Pope Leo IX, in a letter sent in 1054 to Michael I Cerularius, Patriarch of Constantinople.[3] He cited a large portion of the document, believing it genuine,[6][7] furthering the debate that would ultimately lead to the East–West Schism. In the 11th and 12th centuries, the Donation was often cited in the investiture conflicts between the papacy and the secular powers in the West
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Ishmael


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aurelius wrote:
A creationist site has identified the tree as representative of the 'Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil' and drawn attention to the forbidden fruit (shown dangling in (B), a serpent which winds around the trunk (shown at the base in C) and even Eve’s hand (D). The fruit has not yet been taken and the serpent still has its legs.


How is this not definitive??
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aurelius



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Ishmael wrote:

How is this not definitive??


To me this is more exciting than the terracotta warriors, which have had far more media coverage. The museum at Sanxingdui is certainly beautifully laid out. The best way to see inside the Museum, I have found, is just search for 'Sanxingdui' on Google Maps, then look at the sidebar of tourist info on the left. Scroll down a bit and you will see '31 photos'. If you click on these you will get some great internal shots, some of which you can pan.

I've got more to post up on this part of the Serpent's Tale thread, so please bear with me.
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