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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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Why does Anglesey appear to be called Angle Sea? Angle as in England?
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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Well, lookye here:
Famous 'Celtic' nations may be misnamed.
Early historians believed the Celts - thought to have come from an area to the east of modern France and south of Germany - invaded the Atlantic islands around 2,500 years ago. |
We only have a notion of 'Celts' because the classical writers spoke of them and, invasion or no, the mistake is to ignore what they actually said and fixate on the La Tène culture as their origin, barely a moment before they we first written about. (The rise of La Tène is probably something to do with their disappearance...)
Anyone got any idea why Hallstatt is all of a sudden left out of the frame? Should it be?
And where do the Beaker People fit?
| But archaeologists have recently questioned that theory, and now Bradley, from Trinity College Dublin, and his team, say DNA evidence supports their thinking. |
Does that mean archaeologists have recently questioned the interpretation of the evidence as that of an invasion? If so, I'd like to know more. (Maybe Cunliffe's Facing the Ocean will tell me... eventually.)
| Geneticists used DNA samples from people living in Celtic nations and compared the genetic traits with those of people in other parts of Europe. |
This presupposes that there should still be Celts living in "other parts of Europe" -- which flatly contradicts the standard view that the Celts were driven back to the brink by the barbarian hordes.
But, of course, we know that there should not be any close genetic links between Insular Celts and inland Europeans, because a) the only Celts left are the Insular ones, because b) they never constituted the grass roots population elsewhere in their "empire".
| 'What we would propose is that this commonality among the Atlantic facade is much older ... 6,000 years ago or earlier,' Bradley told Reuters. |
Thank you. That's what we said.
| Dark or red hair and freckles are considered Celtic features. |
I suspect that red hair is really a Nordic trait and being "considered Celtic" is the same mistake as "New Age art" being considered Celtic.
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Brian Ambrose
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Insular Non-Celts - A Megalithic Mystery
Who determined the Irish/Welsh/Scots (Picts) were ever Celtic? I can't find any corroborating evidence. Seventeenth and eighteenth century speculators do not a nation make. Follow the evidence. Blood, language and stonemason skills don't lie.
The trail starts in North Africa, spreads to the Atlantic Islands, then to coastal Iberia, Brittany, where it turns west to Ireland, Wales, Scotland and the Hebrides.
The Continental Celts are neither related by blood or language to this first group and only by sketchy circumstantial artistic evidence.
The one thing that all the above places have in common is the Sea. These intrepid Rh- wanderers didn't walk across the Atlantic they sailed across it and they sailed the Med as well, a piece of piss to mariners who were used to the dangers of the Endless Green Sea.
The Megalith builders were not the Continental Celts though they may have inherited the real builders' legacy. However I seriously doubt they had any knowledge of the stones' purpose though some may have known the builders.
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Komorikid
In: Gold Coast, Australia
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Hatty wrote:
| Are you telling us that Ancient Greek philosophy and mathematics is inherited so to speak from the Druids, that Ancient Britain is the source of learning and culture throughout western Europe? |
That's exactly what I'm saying. Western historians, medieval and modern, are so fixated with the Greco-Roman culture that they can't accept that the Greeks and Romans had to LEARN it from someone. The Greeks and Romans were the Japanese of their day. They were merely copyist, exceedingly good one but impostors none the less.
Western scholars refuse to accept that maths, science and philosophy existed before the Classical Greek, even when the Greeks themselves credit their knowledge to those who preceded them; namely the Egyptians, Phoenicians and Celts. The Romans didn't build the roads they just paved over the ones already there. The Greeks didn't invent philosophy and mathematics they learned it from the Celts and Babylonians.
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Komorikid
In: Gold Coast, Australia
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Bravo Bri
My sentiments exactly and something I have echoed on other threads.
Collis' Map is wrong because it omits the two most significant stone circles apart from Stonehenge. That of M'Zoro in Morocco and Nabta Playa in Egypt. The entire length of North Africa should be included From Egypt to the Atlantic coast of Morocco.
The entire stretch abounds with megaliths and many of them bear the unmistakeable swirls of spirals and concentric circle carvings that predominate in Ireland and France.
The Geodelics are not Celts.
The Celts of the Greeks and Romans were an Elite overlay in East Briton and Greater Western Europe that were present long before the accepted 600BC. They were present in England and Europe before the Thera eruption in 1600BC. The aftermath of that eruption may have even precipitated their rise to prominence.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Komorikid wrote: | The Greeks didn't invent philosophy and mathematics they learned it from the Celts and Babylonians. |
Maybe that explains the vexed question of the name, could England be so called as the angle-(mathematical) land rather than the Angle-(people) land, the whole island being one self-contained triangle?
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Dan wrote: | There they are: the Cynesians are the Portuguese. |
There's a very strong link between Britain and Portugal I seem to recall from history lessons, never satisfactorily explained. The name does rather suggest it was the last port of call for seafaing traders before Brian's Endless Green Sea.
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Oakey Dokey
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OK
So this isn't really wetting many people's juices.
How about a different approach?
Hands up those interested in the Arthurian legend!
Thanks to a PM from Dan a while back I've struck upon a tentative link.
| Yes, I think that's basically where "Avalon = Isle of Apples" comes from. |
Now let's get a few things in order.
The most sacred island to the Ancient Britons would have been Anglesey. The Romans garrisoned this island to prevent the Druids regaining power over their people and cut down the ancient sacred groves on the island; they also desecrated the structures associated with Druidic faith (whatever they were).
Oak galls are known as Oak apples, they grow on oaks throughout Europe and have a wide use from poisons to medicines and even inks.
The Arthurian legend is intrinsically linked with the battle of Mynydd Baddon (Mons Badonicus), no-one knows where this took place or when but history generally puts it slap bang in the middle of the Angle/Romano-Celtic battles associated with ambrosia (Arthur).
In the Arthurian legend the dying or dead Arthur is whisked away to the Island of Apples (thanks, Dan) to be healed!
The Romans finally invaded Ynys Mon (Anglesey) and ransacked the island. But they never totally decimated the place. According to their own records, they were called away to deal with an uprising before completing the task. So we can assume that after the fall of the Roman Empire and the loss of control of the British Isles, any Romans remaining would have known the significance of the most ancient and sacred island to the Celtic religion.
Anglesey is the traditional seat of power of the high kings of Gwynedd.
Merlin has often been spoken of as a Druidic wizard.
If the Kingdom of Arthur was Gwynedd it would be the same as the older kings so it must have been located elsewhere. But where? Well, we are dealing with a Roman warrior/leader who becomes a Celtic king so what do we look for? A fort!
Some of the best and most impressing Roman forts are in South Wales. The main river associated with the Romans in Glamorgan is the River Ely. The Roman legions there would have been named after it 'campus ely' or campus elleti ('Camelot'?). The word Ambrosius is associated with divine or immortal one. Arthur's father was Uther Pendragon who had a servant named Mabonson of Modron; he was given the title of 'vultures of ely' by Uther. Mabon means divine son.
Anyone else care to take a stab at things?
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Most inspiring, Oakey. Again. I wish I knew more about this stuff but one of the perils of writing a book lauding the "English" over the Celts, is that one tends to be deeply tied to, in this case, the wrong camp.
Still and all, coupla things occurred.
1. The (Classical) Greeks were deeply into this ambrosia but modern day commentators steer well clear of it, even treating it as a mythical substance. I get the impression though that this "food of the Gods" was used in Elysian Mysteries (which are also well steered clear of). It sounds like it's made out of oak-apples, so it shouldn't really be so hard to track down. But I notice you never mention mistletoe, what's the connection?
2. The Island of Ely (in the East Anglian Fens...these "Angles" seem to get around) is also a magical place. Surrounded by water. We have yet to get to the bottom of this Druidical penchant for land-water interfaces.
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Oakey Dokey
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The most interesting and puzzling part of all this is oak groves and mistletoe usage.
Oak groves on hills are not only revered in Druidic practices but are actually part of Roman history.
Rome often attributes its existence to a Trojan prince who landed in Italy, made friends with a local Latin King and married his daughter, their son creates an ancient Latin city called Alban Longis. Several generations later Romulus and Remus are born. They decide to make a city away from the old Alban to avoid conflict with their father/grandfather (stories vary) so Romulus plants his wooden staff in the sacred hill of Diana in amongst a sacred oak grove (although this is attributed as being sacred to the Latins not the Trojans).
Jupiter (Jove) himself the highest deity in Rome was associated with the oak tree. Caesars were crowned under a golden bunch of oak leaves on 'coronation'.
The hero that founded the Trojan link in Italy is called Aeneas and was second in command only to Hector in the Trojan wars. Every account says Aeneas survived the Trojan War and left with varying peoples. Although Aeneas is associated with Troy he is in actual fact from older stock than Troy (Hector, Paris and Priam). He comes from a comparatively advanced peoples called the Dardanian house. So Aeneas has great potential in the story.
Julius is a name formed from his ancestral line. It is traced to the son of Aeneas - Silvias, which means wood or forest.
The Celtic goddess Brigit is associated with healing and came from the Danaan tribe. The name means 'fiery arrow' It is interesting at this point to note that Apollo was the high god of Troy and was responsible for archers and healing, he had a twin sister with exactly the same 'powers' - none other than Diana.
Scotland was called Alba by the Romans as was their initial Trojan city state back in Italy (Alban Longis). Albania is the traditional home of the Dardanian peoples who fought and beat the Macedonians(Greeks). The Welsh have tried (although through Nennius and Geoffrey of Monmouth, the latter who was contemporaneous with a founding Templar named Payen de Montdidier, it is not quite sure if it is fact or fiction) to claim ancestry to Troy through the founder of the Britons and after whom the Island is supposedly named - Brutus. The Welsh Brutus is more than likely some sort of invention but the odd choice to link him to a Dordanian/Trojan ancestry is 'odd' to say the least.
Anyway, the Roman myth or legend of its birth includes the use of a 'golden bough' the use of which is likened to a key that unlocks all locks. In the Roman version which may in all probability predate Greek through its Dordanian link, says that Aeneas showed a 'golden bough' to the gate keeper of Hades (hence the key to unlock all locks)
Another name for the golden bough is mistletoe. And another name is 'allheal'. The Druids used the mistletoe to treat all types of ailments but the interesting part is how they collected it, they used a golden sickle and cut it from the branches of oak trees on a special day in which they would then share out the mistletoe to the populous and sacrifice two white bulls for eating in an all-day feast. The Alban lineage (Romulus) also ate of a white bull at Mount Alba (the sacred oak grove) with a tribe amongst them who were also allowed to eat of the white bull meat who called themselves the 'Men of the Oak'. The sacrifice in this case consisted of a white bull and and white cow after ploughing the boundary of Rome with a golden ploughshare. Even Virgil talks of a 'golden branch' (6th book of the Aenead) of which no one can return from the netherworlds without possessing.
Jesus was known as the branch. He was also known as the 'allhealer' or healer of all. The messiah (the branch) was sent from heaven. Mistletoe is also 'sent from heaven' as it is an EXTREMELY odd plant. The Celts believed that it was sent by the God of Lightning as oaks were often hit by lightning. The very word mistletoe comes from the mistle thrush and a combination of toe (tan) meaning twig. Mistletoe cannot germinate unless its seed passes through the digestive system of a bird. In fact mistle itself can be interpreted as dung. So it literally means dungtwig, exactly how the mistletoe reproduces.
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Oakey Dokey
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The Oak is sacred to all of the following:
Allah - Jehovah - Zeus - Jupiter - Thor - Mars - the Dagda - Hercules - Hou, the oak god of Guernsey - Janicot, the Basque oak god - El, the Middle Eastern oak god - Jove - Picus - Cernunnos - Herne the Hunter - Taranis - Teutates - Belenos - Donar / Dunar / Thunar - Perkunas - Perun - Taraa - Baldur - Viribius - Janus. It is also the tree of the wild ox-god.
Masonic tradition often mentions the Norse God Baldur with the story of Loki and mistletoe.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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There was a TV programme, "Britain AD", all about mysterious inscriptions--mysterious because they seem to be ordinary epitaphs written in bad Latin until they are decoded, which they only have been recently--which started appearing in their thousands as soon as the Romans left in 410 AD.
Francis Pryor claimed that Britain was the repository of "Scholarly Latin" and by implication of the higher learning generally. This is extremely belated but good news from an academic but the reason he ascribed for Britain being where civilised values were kept alive--because uniquely in Western Europe, the British were speaking a non-Romance language and hence didn't suffer from crossover vulgarisms--is obvious tosh.
What appears to have happened is that the Druids left/were driven out by the Romans and set up shop in Ireland. And returned as soon as it was safe to do so. They then launched the "Celtic Renaissance" which ultimately led to modern Europe (and the modern world).
Oakey's account seems to be taking the matter back pre-Roman. This same "tradition" appears to be popping up all around the Ancient Mediterranean (don't forget Aeneas is mostly associated with Queen Dido of Carthage). But what is fascinating (in a novelettish sort of way) is that there seems to be two traditions permanently in conflict. The one overground and which seems to win all the battles (and writes all the history), the other underground that is actually moving history on.
But I wish somebody would tell me what mistletoe actually does. Why hasn't modern pharmaceuticals sorted this out yet?
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Oakey Dokey
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Basically mistletoe cures everything....
To name but a few:
Blood pressure (high and low), epilepsy (falling sickness), poisoning, fertility and most interestingly, in modern times it's being investigated for its tumour and cancer reducing properties.
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Komorikid
In: Gold Coast, Australia
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The Druid/Mistletoe theme is also related to the 5th November. Pliny records that the day the Mistletoe is cut and the celebrations carried out is on the 6th day after the New Moon. He states that upon that day their (Druids) month begins and also their New Year and records that their Ages are in 30 year cycles. Mistletoe is called All-Heale because it is a cure-all and this may be the origin of All Hallow's Eve (Halloween) The real first day of the Druid New Year.
The difference between the 5th and 6th day of November may be that the Druids reckoned days from Midnight while the Romans from Sunrise. How All-Heale Eve got transferred to the 31st of October is a mystery, but perhaps one of you has the answer.
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Komorikid
In: Gold Coast, Australia
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What is interesting is that Mistletoe is commonly seen on Apple trees but only rarely on Oak trees. More Oak/Apple ... Apple Isle/Apollo connections.
The belief that germination was only possible through a bird's digestive tract is not true.
One of the earliest written references to this appeared in England, in 1532. Botanists of the time also observed that the sticky berry seeds of the mistletoe tended to cling to the bills of birds. When the birds cleaned their bills by rubbing them against the branches or bark of trees, the seeds were further scattered.
Its reputation as a cure-all seems to be well founded. Interest in mistletoe as a possible treatment for cancer began in the 1920s. Extracts of mistletoe have been shown to kill cancer cells in the laboratory and to boost the immune system. For this reason, mistletoe has been classified as a type of biological response modifier (a substance that stimulates the body's response to infection and disease).
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