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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| Hatty wrote: | | as well as by the vikings (supposedly). |
Do you have the primary source for the attacks (supposedly), Wile? This is not always straightforward. Historians are often quite chary about revealing it/them, preferring to quote some other historian/s including page number, date of publication and so on. |
Don't know how to answer that one. I am suspicious of all primary sources in the Dark Ages. Much of what is considered primary is 12 -15 century onward.
The orthodox time line for Peterborough Cathedral.
The original church, known as "Medeshamstede", was founded in the reign of the Anglo-Saxon King Peada of the Middle Angles in about 655 AD, |
Peada=Peter
| The monastic settlement with which the church was associated lasted at least until 870, when it was supposedly destroyed by Vikings. In an alcove of the Lady Chapel, lies an ancient stone carving: the Hedda Stone. This medieval carving of 12 monks, six on each side, commemorates the destruction of the Monastery and the death of the Abbot and Monks when the area was sacked by the Vikings in 864. The Hedda Stone was likely carved sometime after the raid, when the monastery slipped into decline.[3] |
The Hedda was likely carved after.....if it was carved before it would be a fine example of premonition. So perhaps this means a long time (they can't date it? )
| In the mid 10th century monastic revival (in which churches at Ely and Ramsey were also refounded) a Benedictine Abbey was created and endowed in 966, principally by Athelwold, Bishop of Winchester, from what remained of the earlier church, with "a basilica [church] there furbished with suitable structures of halls, and enriched with surrounding lands" and more extensive buildings which saw the aisle built out to the west with a second tower added. The original central tower was, however, retained.[4] It was dedicated to St Peter, and came to be called a burgh, hence the town surrounding the abbey was eventually named Peter-burgh. The community was further revived in 972 by Dunstan, Archbishop of Canterbury.[2][5] |
This newer church had as its major focal point a substantial western tower with a "Rhenish helm" and was largely constructed of ashlars.[citation needed] Only a small section of the foundations of the Anglo-Saxon church remain beneath the south transept but there are several significant artefacts, including Anglo-Saxon carvings such as the Hedda Stone, from the earlier building.
In 2008, Anglo-Saxon grave markers were reported to have been found by workmen repairing a wall in the cathedral precincts. The grave markers are said to date to the 11th century, and probably belonged to "townsfolk".[6] |
Peada = Peter
Although damaged during the struggle between the Norman invaders and local folk-hero, Hereward the Wake, it was repaired and continued to thrive until destroyed by an accidental fire in 1116. This event necessitated the building of a new church in the Norman style, begun by Abbot John de Sais on 8 March 1118 (Old Style)
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Hereward is I think most likely Harold redivivus. Some think he is the origin of the Robin Hood Myth.
Anyway Herewald loots the place the fire finishes it.
Many historians think Herewald existed.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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There is no record of such persons as Penda or Peada outside Bede and the ASC nor is there archaeological evidence for a 7th century monastery. In fact according to the archaeological report the only Anglo-Saxon evidence consists of 'a single sherd' never mind an entire monastery is missing
| the only material culture of this date to be recovered was residual in nature (a single sherd of Maxey-type ware from a 19th-century garden soil layer). |
According to both Wiki and British History Online, the earliest chronicler of the abbey is Hugh Candidus (c. 1095 – c. 1160) "a monk of the Benedictine monastery at Peterborough, who wrote a Medieval Latin account of its history, from its foundation as Medeshamstede in the mid 7th century up to the mid 12th century".
Cambridge Archaeological Unit, which carried out excavations of Peterborough Cathedral in 2016, received a large grant from the Heritage Lottery Fund in order to celebrate the cathedral's 900th year in 2018. So that puts its foundation date at 1118. Seems the '7th century' bit got dropped for some reason, perhaps because the foundations have been dated to the 12th century?
The excavators found plenty of Roman material which begs the question how five hundred or more years' worth of archaeology could have vanished.
| Although the environment of the site itself was determined to have been wet and inhospitable at this time, evidence of Late Roman occupation was identified in the immediate vicinity. The area subsequently remained wet and marginal until the 12th century, when it was incorporated into the expanding precinct of the Benedictine Abbey of St Peter. |
http://www.access.arch.cam.ac.uk/communities/current/1365PeterboroughCathedral.pdf
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| Hatty wrote: | | There is no record of such persons as Penda or Peada outside Bede and the ASC |
Quite, no record of King Penda or Peada.....but both appears to play a part in the pagan conversion myth.
Hmmm Penta | on line wrote: | *penkwe- Look up *penkwe- at Dictionary.com
Proto-Indo-European root meaning "five."
It forms all or part of: cinquain; cinque; cinquecento; cinquefoil; fifteen; fifth; fifty; fin (n.) "five-dollar bill;" finger; fist; five; foist; keno; parcheesi; penta-; pentacle; pentad; Pentateuch; Pentecost; pentagon; pentagram; pentameter; pentathlon; Pentothal; Pompeii; Punjab; punch (n.2) "type of mixed drink;" quinary; quincunx; quinella; quinque-; quinquennial; quint; quintain; quintet; quintile; quintessence; quintillion; quintuple.
It is the hypothetical source of Sanskrit panca, Greek pente, Latin quinque, Old Church Slavonic peti, Lithuanian penke, Old Welsh pimp, Old English fif, Dutch vijf, Old High German funf. |
They appear to be using base units 4 and 5 with the letters A,B,C,D
In Cornwall I can see "small" "three" and "five."
The phrase Tre, Pol and Pen is used to describe people from or places in Cornwall, UK. The full rhyming couplet runs: By Tre Pol and Pen / Shall ye know all Cornishmen,[1][2] a version of which was recorded by Richard Carew in his Survey of Cornwall, published in 1602.[3] Many Cornish surnames and place names still retain these words as prefixes, such as the surname Trelawny and the village Polzeath. Tre in the Cornish language means a settlement or homestead; Pol, a pond, lake or well; and Pen (also Welsh and Cumbric), a hill or headland. Cornish surnames and placenames are generally pronounced with the emphasis on the second syllable.
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Maybe they are collected administration units maybe its a grid ?
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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In one of Auro's articles they are comparing it to Escomb.
| One of the most complete Saxon churches in the UK, St John's, Escomb has been a place of worship since approximately 670 AD. The building materials that make up the church go back a lot further, though; many were taken from the old Roman fort at Binchester, and Roman inscriptions can be seen on many of the stones used in the construction of the church |
Roman.
| On the exterior south wall of the church is a Saxon sundial, believed to be the oldest still in its original setting in the entire country. There are only three lines on the sundial, corresponding to the three principal times of worship during the daily schedule of early monks; Terce, Sext. and Nones. Under the lines a serrpent stretches. |
He is guessing.... sundial serpent maybe mithraic?
| Several items on the exterior north wall are worth noting; a projecting lip of stone protects a Roman inscription. The stone was simply re-used by the Saxon builders of the church, so the inscription is upside down. It reads "LEG VI", meaning, Sixth Legion. Nearer ground level is the north door. This extremely simple doorway is generally accepted to be of Celtic origin. The surounding masonry work indicates that the entire doorway may have been taken whole from Binchester and re-used here. |
Celtic? Come on, Binchester is Roman.
Inside the church there is an absolute wealth of Saxon material. The south porch shows two Saxon stone crosses, and several other bits and pieces of interesting carving found on the site. Inside the nave, the font is extremely simple. It dates to at least the 13th century, though it may be quite a bit earlier
Set high on the north wall is another Roman stone, set on its side, and used as part of the supports for a Saxon window. The inscription on the stone reads, "BONO REI PUBUCAE NATO", which translates loosely as "To the man born for the good of the state". Moving up the nave you come to the Chancel Arch, where the Saxons again reused an existing arch from Binchester Roman fort. The stonework of the Romans was so good that no masonry was needed to set the arch in place. |
Absolute wealth eh, it's all Roman or 13C.
| On the underside of the arch, clearly visible, are paintings from the 12th or 13th century. Behind the high altar is a striking carving in the shape of a cross. This is believed to be a 9th century grave stone, but it may be the remains of preaching cross dating to the earliest days of Celtic Christianity in Northumbria, before the church was constructed. |
I am not convinced, maybe Lindisfarne will have less Roman and 12 century paintings......
http://www.britainexpress.com/counties/durham/churches/Escomb.htm
A contrary view here...."A pure simple unadorned anglo-saxon church..."
http://greatenglishchurches.co.uk/html/escomb.html
Nope, makes my case for me .....Roman and 12C plus. No verifiable Dark Age stuff at all.
Let's take a look at Escomb as a ruin before (during?) Victorian restoration
https://escombsaxonchurch.co.uk/gallery/#jp-carousel-109
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You're on a roll Wile. The only thing concerning me is the installation of the VIth legion stone upside down. If this was supervised by Romans it seems odd.
So possibly Norman? But it's not high enough up the North wall to be part of the raised roof rebuild...you can observe this by magnifying the general picture of the north wall, as the stone is easily identifiable by the thin overhang across the top. It is to the right of the chancel and to the left of the leftmost window.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Thanks for the Escomb heads-up, Wile. The elision between Roman and Norman architecture is 'Romanesque' which the author of the Escomb church article claims is British because of the Synod of Whitby!
| Jarrow and Monkwearmouth - the so-called “twin monastery†was built by Benedict Biscop who, along with his friend St Wilfred, was an arch proponent of Roman liturgy and architecture and who consciously copied Romanesque architectural styles. The same is true of the Kentish nexus of churches sponsored by St Augustine in the late 6th century. One might then make the case that Escomb is the oldest church we have that is of singularly British design. Moreover, it is more or less unchanged. |
We were taught that Romanesque = Norman but obviously times have changed. Wiki seems not to be quite au fait either
| The term Norman architecture is used to categorise styles of Romanesque architecture developed by the Normans in the various lands under their dominion or influence in the 11th and 12th centuries. In particular the term is traditionally used for English Romanesque architecture. |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_architecture
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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I always found that Road Runner intensely annoying too.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| Ishmael wrote: | Hmm... Which accords well with my alegation of years past that Norman = Roman.
R and N are constantly and consistently confused. |
Whilst most folks have heard of the Battle of Hastings.
I for one was surprised to learn
The Sack of Rome of May 1084 was a Norman sack, the result of the pope's call for aid from the duke of Apulia, Robert Guiscard.
Pope Gregory VII was besieged in the Castel Sant'Angelo by the Emperor Henry IV in June 1083. He held out and called for aid from Guiscard, who was then fighting the Byzantine Emperor Alexius I Comnenus in the Balkans. He returned, however, to the Italian Peninsula and marched north with 36,000 men. He entered Rome and forced Henry to retire, but a riot of the citizens led to a three days sack, after which Guiscard escorted the pope to the Lateran. The Normans had mainly pillaged the old city, which was then one of the richest cities in Italy. After days of unending violence, the Romans rose up causing the Normans to set fire to the city. Many of the buildings of Rome were gutted on the Capitol and Palatine hills along with the area between the Colosseum and the Lateran. In the end the ravaged Roman populace succumbed to the Normans. |
By then arguably the Romans were used to it. It seems there was a lot of sacking during the Dark ages of citadels. (as well as churches)
Sack of Rome (410), by the Visigoths under Alaric
Sack of Rome (455), by the Vandals under Geiseric
Sack of Rome (546), by the Ostrogoths under Totila
Sack of Rome (1084), by the Normans under Robert Guiscard
Sack of Rome (1527), by the mutinous troops of Holy Roman Emperor Charles V
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Don't tell Ishmael about Guiscard's troops sacking Rome since it precisely mirrors Charles V's troops sacking Rome in 1527 in remarkably similar circumstances. They too were officially allied to the Pope, they too were saving the Pope from his enemies (the French) and they too ran amok without (allegedly) the consent of their own commanders. The Pope withdrew to the Castel del Angelo on both occasions too.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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The Normans according to wiki
The descendants of Rollo and his followers adopted the local Gallo-Romance language and intermarried with the area's original inhabitants. They became the Normans – a Norman-speaking mixture of Norsemen and indigenous Franks and Celts.
Rollo's descendant William, Duke of Normandy, became king of England in 1066 in the Norman Conquest culminating at the Battle of Hastings, while retaining the fiefdom of Normandy for himself and his descendants |
So the battle of Hastings according to wiki is a sort of AS v Viking Frankish bash, with Harold adopting the traditional Scandi tactic of the shieldwall.....and William descendent of Rollo using err non scandi heavy cavalry. Clearly Rollo and the guys assimilated local warfare tactics as well as language, whilst Harold was stuck using the older viking A/S methods. Did Harold learn nothing as prisoner of the Bastard? Anglo /Saxon expletive ......."they have heavy cavalry?"
It's all pretty mysterious.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | Don't tell Ishmael about Guiscard's troops sacking Rome since it precisely mirrors Charles V's troops sacking Rome in 1527 in remarkably similar circumstances. |
Spoilsport. Killjoy.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Sorry, I wrote mine before finishing your post, and then had to hurriedly amend it when I did. Pray take over (and correct my 'facts' which were entered in haste).
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | Sorry, I wrote mine before finishing your post, and then had to hurriedly amend it when I did. Pray take over (and correct my 'facts' which were entered in haste). |
Just joshing.....welcome any feedback.
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