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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | A few factual errors there, Grant. The pressing game has not been in existence for years, it's highly recent. Everybody, save possibly the very best Euro club sides, has difficulties playing out from the back against it, that's why it has come into existence. It is not a question of playing ability -- which in any case England has -- but a matter of training, organisation, selection and mind set. England did not forsake it in the World Cup they fell apart generally. It is far too early to tell what does and does not work against good or bad teams. But do go on. |
For the opposition it's a question of targeting those who cannot survive a press, and will hump it up field, or panic, and those who remain calm.
England in the last couple of games have not survived the trial first press. Until they get it right they will get more.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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There is some truth to this but, I say again, very few teams can prosper against a well executed press -- itself not something every team can do, and certainly they cannot do it all the time (too exhausting) and in all situations. I dispute that England fold at the first press but they do give it up too early. Being one-nil ahead, for example, seems to prompt them into hoofing even though that is not a defensive strategy -- denying possession is.
It should be noted that 'panic' is the correct procedure when a particular press is working. Far too often defences lose the ball to a press, with an attempt on goal to follow, because defenders do not understand that playing it out is a tactic not a strategy. Hoof it, son, whenever trouble looms. Don't try to look calm by playing it to someone else to get into trouble. But England defences lack leadership -- I have pointed out before the unwisdom of making a striker captain.
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Grant
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I don't understand. So they should "play it out from the back" but "hoof it" if they are put under pressure. That's a recipe for a totally confused defence
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Am I really capable of saying something so silly? If you are playing it out from the back and being pressed you are by definition 'under pressure'. That, more widely, is the nature of football, of sport itself. Now go back and see what I actually said. If you have misunderstood or I have expressed myself badly, request enlightenment/clarification.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| It should be noted that 'panic' is the correct procedure when a particular press is working. |
I assume this is the source of your confusion. Every press is unique. It depends how many are pressing, how many of your own team have 'come back', where the ball is and so forth. All defenders, including most goalkeepers, have by now the requisite skills to pass it around among themselves and in a generally forward direction. But, and this is the bit that is missing in the England team, they do not have the ability to 'read' the situation. The most obvious factor is whether the pressing players are sufficient in a) number and b) commitment, which in turn fluctuates during the game. Defenders have to recognise when they can't cope. And hoof it.
Now the very best teams -- Barcelona, Juventus and Paris St Germain -- have decided it doesn't matter, they'll back themselves to play out whatever the situation. It looks pretty hair-raising but it seems to work. No international team is likely to reach this level of cohesiveness (never mind that they'll never have this quality of players), so lesser teams' defenders (especially the defensive captain and the goalkeeper) have to make a decision to hoof it or play it out in any given press. I don't know whether this is technically achievable.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | A few factual errors there, Grant. The pressing game has not been in existence for years, it's highly recent. |
Don't know, I remember when I was a cub, that a "press" was a ice hockey tactic, employed by the side that was behind as the end of the game neared. This need to win quick possession when behind, must surely be the tactical "origin" of pressing in football as well, it is merely refined and targeted by cutting the pitch in half etc, and adopted at any point in the match, it evolves to become a strategy. I reckon it is also to do with team formations, as most teams go to 4-5-1 (whatever) the need for a strategy pressing becomes more explicit. In your olden days, a 2-3-5, you had a natural formation to press with? So pressing has always been there just not as a explicit strategy?
cf pinning the opposition into their own half.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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A few factual errors there, Wiley. Up until the early 2000's and the football pitch agrarian revolution (see my earlier posts on the subject) nobody played it out from the back. Without a perfect surface it was far too dangerous. Occasionally a goalkeeper would roll the ball out to a defender but if he dallied, he would be greeted with 50,000 people shouting, "Stop fannying about, get it up the island."
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Just as a sidenote, there was a situation when opponents had no choice but to play it out from the back. This was when they had a throw-in near their own goal line. Normal practice was to throw it to the goalie for him to hoof it up the park. Leeds under Revie (I think, it may have been someone else) had a bright idea. Whenever this situation occurred Bremner (or whoever) made a signal and everyone rushed to surround the thrower-inner. One player would guard the route back to the goalie and the rest milled around defying the defence to even find enough space to get a decent hoof in. We shall never see his like again. Or whoever it was.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Bulgaria 0 England 6
One in the eye for the Gareth Southgate nay-sayers. A little less hysteria, please, pundits. You can put your house on Mings.
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Grant
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The only time the team has done us proud in the last fifty years is when we played 532 in 1996 and last year. Southgate should stop looking for the class players in midfield and just try to overwhelm the opposition with speed. We have lots of fast young players coming through. Use them, and stop trying to find the next playmaking superstar. Fast wing backs are the best you are going to find.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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He used to be a mortgage broker.
Signs of intellectual ferment from Grant but the saloon bar mind is still evident from the use of phrases like "should stop looking for", "just try", "use them", "stop trying to find" and "the best you are going to find". Can anyone tell Uncle Mick why?
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Borrowing from the jargon shows you listen to analyses and general chat, and suggests you follow/are echoing what everyone else thinks even if you aren't. You could say borrowing phrases actually hinders analysis.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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That is a secondary indicator, yes.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Not the language, the tone. Notice that commands are barked, peremptory, brook no argument. Nothing wrong with that in principle but consider who is giving orders to whom. It is Grant, an elderly housewife living in sheltered accommodation just outside Wrotham in Kent, to Gareth Southgate, widely regarded as one of the deepest thinkers about the game, second probably only to me. Nobody would dream of doing that were he (oh, yes) conscious of having saloon bar opinion on his side.
The other clue is the breathtakingly bad ideas being put forward, but I will come to those later.
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Grant
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We're talking football. You're not supposed to have nuanced thoughts. Evidence- the only time (twice) in the last 53 years when we have been proud of England in a major championship is when we have played 532. It suits our game because we are great at producing very fast players like Sterling, Owen, Cole etc. For some reason our educational system can't develop players like Mbappe or Messi. They must potentially exist but we ignore them.
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