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A Question of Race (NEW CONCEPTS)
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Roger Stone


In: conclusive
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Sirs and others,

I observe that in all of human endeavours, there are three fields where we observe the phenomenon of the Child Prodigy: namely, Music, Mathematics, and Chess.

And in the many fields of human endeavour, there are three where the Jewish race are prominent, to a point of dominance. They are... Music, Mathematics, and Chess.

If not coincidence, how is this to be explained?
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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Mother Russia?
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Chad


In: Ramsbottom
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Roger Stone wrote:
Sirs and others,

I observe that in all of human endeavours, there are three fields where we observe the phenomenon of the Child Prodigy: namely, Music, Mathematics, and Chess.

And in the many fields of human endeavour, there are three where the Jewish race are prominent, to a point of dominance. They are... Music, Mathematics, and Chess.

If not coincidence, how is this to be explained?


I presume you're talking about the Ashkenazim (the Sephardi are no more prodigious than the rest of us).

I think we have already mentioned elsewhere that the Ashkenazim have the highest IQ of any ethnic group.

Many generations of culturally imposed selective breeding, followed by a period of politically imposed selective culling, ought to have the desired effect.
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Grant



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Many generations of culturally imposed selective breeding

I am not sure the selective breeding was deliberate. Jews have chosen to follow an evolutionary path which has turned them into intellectual gypsies. Like gypsies they constantly travel; like gypsies they exploit the "host" population; and like gypsies they promote their own kind at the expense of the rest. So why are they so intelligent?

At any one time the easiest way for any individual Jew would be to enjoy the benefits of belonging to the tribe whilst fraternising with gentiles and doing nothing for his people. To prevent this, Judaism forces Jews to follow various difficult traditions to demonstrate loyalty.

Taxes are imposed on Jews to support the community; Jews are prevented from eating pigs and a host of other cheap foodstuffs; Jews must do nothing for one day a week etc etc. The result is that stupid Jews tend to fall away from the community, leaving those who can earn enough money to pay the direct and indirect taxes. Over the generations this has definitely had an effect on intelligence.

As for music, maths and chess, could it also be that these topics are like languages? Jews are very good at languages because their peripatetic history has made it essential.
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Mick Harper
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Surely Jewish talents are evidence of 'acquired characteristics' (Lamark) rather than 'genetic selection' (Darwin). Jews, especially Jews in the conditions of Eastern Europe, are hardly likely to select mates on the basis of skill in music, maths, chess -- or even intellectuality in general. And even if they marginally did, there's not the slightest possibility that such slightly differential breeding over so relatively few generations would produce a Jewish population with such marked general characteristics.

But acquired characteristics ie where every Jew goes to shtetl/ synagogue, is obliged to learn maths and Hebrew and won't be mated with if he hasn't ... well, that's a different matter.
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Chad


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Mustn't forget the aXe factor.

(If we are to believe what we see in the movies) whenever a host society gets pissed off with its Jews (and decides to exact retribution) those able to demonstrate a prodigious talent, always manage to escape the fate of the majority, by "performing" for their would-be persecutors.
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Mick Harper
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Don't buy this gloss on Survival of the Fittest either. Apart from very recent times, pogroms were neither frequent nor particularly bloody. Sufficient of course to encourage emigration though that would not of itself much affect the gene-pool.

But in any case, even in concentration camps, it was the physically strong rather than the intellectually gifted that survived. Cossacks sparing chess-players? mmm...
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Chad


In: Ramsbottom
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Even the physically strong got their come-uppance in the end.

But you're forgetting the well known fact that every single SS officer had his very own chamber orchestra of Jewish musicians, who would perform for him during those quiet moments of reflection or at those lavish dinner parties...

And we all know to what use the mathematicians were put.
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Chad


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Don't know why it took me so long to realise it (must be getting old) but all we have touched on so far are simply mechanisms for keeping the pencil sharp -- but it was pretty pointy from the outset.

As I said earlier:
(the Sephardi are no more prodigious than the rest of us).

So the answer lies within the Ashkenazim themselves: What we are seeing is a 'Founder Effect'. The Ashkenazim are descendants of Jewish converts from the Khazari Empire.

When Khazaria adopted Judaism, it wasn't a homogeneous conversion. The Emperor, his family and the ruling classes converted first (and most wholeheartedly), the masses followed later (if at all).

So at the fall of the Khazari Empire, those most likely to cling to their Judaism would have been those who had gained most from it -- The Elite.

And these were the founders of the Ashkenazim.
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Mick Harper
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Yes, this is rather better. We tried to hint that a similar factor operated in The Megalithic Empire -- that the Megalithics were a caste apart, and that (even) the English gentry were a later reflection of this. However, we also pointed out what happens when such castes lose their original purpose and become canal families, circus troupes, tinkers, travellers, gypsies and so forth.
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Grant



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When Khazaria adopted Judaism, It wasn't a homogeneous conversion. The Emperor, his family and the ruling classes converted first (and most wholeheartedly), the masses followed later (if at all).


The Khazar stuff is fascinating but it hasn't been supported by DNA.

As for the Sephardi/Askenazi difference a solution was proposed by Kevin MacDonald (either the Galileo of our times or Goebbels, take your pick). He says that the Sephardi were the remnants of the Jews booted out of Spain in the 15th Century. There they were very successful but once settled in hostile Arab communities they

became separated from the wider Jewish community --mainly the lower classes of Jewish society-- after the expulsion of 1492. This was a dysgenic event for that group, and their descendants do not seem especially accomplished.

Of course, the subject is so controversial that few are prepared to even think about researching into it
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Wile E. Coyote


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Roger Stone wrote:
Sirs and others,

I observe that in all of human endeavours, there are three fields where we observe the phenomenon of the Child Prodigy: namely, Music, Mathematics, and Chess.

And in the many fields of human endeavour, there are three where the Jewish race are prominent, to a point of dominance. They are... Music, Mathematics, and Chess.

If not coincidence, how is this to be explained?


Historically Jews are over represented as top chess players....

Tal, Stein, Rubinstein, Bronstein, Fischer, Botwinnik, Lasker Smyslov (A fine opera singer) Taimonov (a fine pianist), Korchnoi, Reshevsky and Polgar.

So far so good....

How many put it down...to being a Jew....

None that I can think of.....

They do have some charcteristics in common.

1) A tremendous capacity for hard work and determination

2) They started chess early....

3) They learn from their defeats, instead of (as well as) making excuses.

I am afarid that the simple boring answer is that the so called child genius in MMC simply practices a lot, starts early, normally due to parental pressure, but importantly thinks for themself as these pursuits are based on understanding not memory.

The more you practice, the better you are.

If you get to 2000.00 at 10 (not that difficult) and improve at a mere 50 elo a year you will be a 2500.00 GM at 20, in a copule of years you can be 2700.00.

Folks will call you a genius......

This is exactly what Lazlo Polgar did to Judit and her sisters...
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Mick Harper
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The Polgar case is not quite as decisive as you might think, Coyote. In the first place, women chess players are sufficiently rare for a small advantage to have large consequences. And if the formula were as simple as you claim then a zillion crazed prodigy-parents would have churned out a zillion Polgars by now.

So why did the parents choose chess for prodigiousness? Not the most obvious choice for Iron Curtain Hungarian girls. Unless the parents were already good chess players (and Jews presumably). But even so, your acknowledgement that it might be because of

1) A tremendous capacity for hard work and determination ....
3) They learn from their defeats, instead of (as well as) making excuses.

is odd because these traits themselves are just as likely to be genetic as social. Your quote (from Gary Player) that "The more you practice, the better you are" is particularly misleading since there are a million golfers as obsessively practising their golf as he did and yet remain complete duffers..
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Grant



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I think the story was that Polgar wanted to show that he could turn his daughters into geniuses by nurture rather than nature. A few subjects were tried but the girls seemed to like chess so that was it.
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Wile E. Coyote


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Grant wrote:
I think the story was that Polgar wanted to show that he could turn his daughters into geniuses by nurture rather than nature. A few subjects were tried but the girls seemed to like chess so that was it.


Yes and he (whoops, they) did it.

Another interesting tale was that of Josh Waitzkin of Searching for Bobby Fischer fame. Josh tried to become a chess champion, but instead turned into a martial arts world champion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj1gxz5puaQ
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