MemberlistThe Library Index  FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
The Ancient Global Positioning System (Pre-History)
Reply to topic Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Ishmael


In: Toronto
View user's profile
Reply with quote

The Ancient Global Positioning System

The purpose of this thread is to explore the evidence for a world-wide navigation system having operated in times unrecorded by history: A system that enabled ancient mariners to traverse the globe and enabled political leaders to subdivide its land masses into jurisdictions, even long before those regions could be exploited.

When precisely this system was in use and when it fell into disuse is not necessarily limited by the boundaries of "prehistory." The system may have been developed in truly ancient times and only abandoned quite recently; or the technology may have flourished only briefly, just prior to the age of Longitude, somehow evading notice by historians. Or it may have been used in far distant ages by strange men in an era when even stranger beasts inhabited the Earth. Whatever its age, the system remains "prehistoric" in so far as it has gone without any mention in the historical record.

And yet, some remains of it would appear to echo even in the documentation of our own time.
Send private message
Ishmael


In: Toronto
View user's profile
Reply with quote

The following site just might prove of great use to those of us searching for surviving evidence of a navigation system in use from antiquity.

Welcome to the New Earth Olympics!

Full of wacko New Age stuff but they may have stumbled on some interesting finds.
Send private message
aurelius



View user's profile
Reply with quote

You may be interested in this article on Portolan charts....

http://bigthink.com/strange-maps/648-portolan-charts-too-accurate-to-be-medieval
Send private message
Mick Harper
Site Admin

In: London
View user's profile
Reply with quote

This is astonishing at face value. However it is even more astonishing that the bloke got his Ph D -- I would expect him to be laughed out of court for this kind of historical heresy.

Nobody seems to have leapt to the conclusion that I (and perhaps most people here) would which is that portolans (at least the ones he is talking about) are modern forgeries. Presumably somebody somewhere has ruled this out. Presumably.
Send private message
Ishmael


In: Toronto
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Thank you.
Send private message
aurelius



View user's profile
Reply with quote

If the charts were 'modern forgeries' why would Scotland be almost null and void and Scandinavia virtually unrecognisable?

Another explanation worth considering I derive from our incomplete knowledge of the contents of the Library of Alexandria prior to its several crises in 48 BC, AD 270s and 'final' destruction in AD 391 (Wiki) - or indeed any of the libraries of the Roman Empire (yes I know the Romans got cursory mention in the thesis). The shapelessness of Scotland is particularly germane here if my limited knowledge of Roman exploration north of Hadrian's Wall is sufficient.

Before we start looking for Atlantis (after all none of the portolan charts show it) let's look at other possible explanations.
Send private message
Mick Harper
Site Admin

In: London
View user's profile
Reply with quote

If the charts were 'modern forgeries' why would Scotland be almost null and void and Scandinavia virtually unrecognisable?

Because the forgers would presumably include only parts of the world known to the people they are forging. If so, they seem to have got it about right. Or perhaps not if the dude is correct!

Another explanation worth considering I derive from our incomplete knowledge of the contents of the Library of Alexandria prior to its several crises in 48 BC, AD 270s and 'final' destruction in AD 391 (Wiki) - or indeed any of the libraries of the Roman Empire (yes I know the Romans got cursory mention in the thesis). The shapelessness of Scotland is particularly germane here if my limited knowledge of Roman exploration north of Hadrian's Wall is sufficient.

This can't be ruled out of course (negative evidence) but the lack of similar maps (or even perhaps descriptions of the places covered) is suspicious. Though everything to do with the Library of Alexandria is suspicious.

Before we start looking for Atlantis (after all none of the portolan charts show it) let's look at other possible explanations.

Where's Atlantis come into this. I am confused. But look forward to your other possible explanations. Or even your Atlantisoid explanations.
Send private message
Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
View user's profile
Reply with quote

These appear to my unknowlegeable eyes a sort of functional half way house between map and globe, in fact it reminded me a bit of a suggestion I first saw on TME pg 7.......
Send private message
aurelius



View user's profile
Reply with quote

Furthermore, if I was the Librarian of such a collection at the time it was threatened by fire, religious or political zealotry or whatever I imagine I would try to save those documents which I thought would be of lasting value - and secrete them away somewhere.

Perhaps if I was caught I may have been executed for not disclosing the cache, like the unfortunate Syrian archaeologist at Palmyra the other week.

Should that cache fall under control of an illiterate or otherwise disinterested regime and population it may well not be noticed for hundreds of years, viz. the Oxyrhynchus Papyri which I have just read were rediscovered by the British in the 1890s (contents including fragments of Euclid, Euripedes etc.)

Perhaps this is how the constituent parts of the Portolan maps were preserved?
Send private message
Mick Harper
Site Admin

In: London
View user's profile
Reply with quote

These appear to my unknowlegeable eyes a sort of functional half way house between map and globe, in fact it reminded me a bit of a suggestion I first saw on TME pg 7......

Wiley, I'm not used to having my work quoted in authoritative circles. Perhaps you could expand on this.

Furthermore, if I was the Librarian of such a collection at the time it was threatened by fire, religious or political zealotry or whatever I imagine I would try to save those documents which I thought would be of lasting value - and secrete them away somewhere.

This seems to me unlikely given that, we are told, the library was burned down rather suddenly by a mob. Would a librarian of that era think these specially valuable? And if so, wouldn't more copies have been made and survived? We moderns seem to be the only people obsessed with maps. A bit Conspiracy Theory but a runner nonetheless.

Perhaps if I was caught I may have been executed for not disclosing the cache, like the unfortunate Syrian archaeologist at Palmyra the other week.

Certainly the Christian mobs who destroyed the Library (though everything about the Library is etc etc) were the IS of their time.

Should that cache fall under control of an illiterate or otherwise disinterested regime and population it may well not be noticed for hundreds of years, viz. the Oxyrhynchus Papyri which I have just read were rediscovered by the British in the 1890s (contents including fragments of Euclid, Euripedes etc.)

Not illiterate surely -- why would such people preserve documents? But, yes, the Ottomans (and for that matter the Papal Archives) seem to have been a bit forgetful-but-preservative. But then again that makes them useful provenances for forgers.

Perhaps this is how the constituent parts of the Portolan maps were preserved?

We need to push deeper.
Send private message
Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
View user's profile
Reply with quote

I like your imagination Auro, but if these are "functioning" they belonged to ancient seafaring/travelling folk. This is clearly why orthodoxy cant explain the Ravenna Cosmography. Orthodoxy is trying to make a map out of the Cosmography, but it neeeds to be understood through the eyes of the Portolan chart.

In the Ancient world...posh peoples' houses and Libraries is where you get Maps and Globes to wonder at.
Send private message
aurelius



View user's profile
Reply with quote

Mick Harper wrote:
If the charts were 'modern forgeries' why would Scotland be almost null and void and Scandinavia virtually unrecognisable?
Because the forgers would presumably include only parts of the world known to the people they are forging. If so, they seem to have got it about right. Or perhaps not if the dude is correct!

This is a 1616 map of Scotland by John Speed. Looks a lot better than the Portolan ones to me:

http://prints.bl.uk/art/478093/map-of-scotland

What sort of time period would you associate the 'modern' forgers with on the basis they would only forge the parts of the world known to them?

This can't be ruled out of course (negative evidence) but the lack of similar maps (or even perhaps descriptions of the places covered) is suspicious.

Don't quite follow - there are several Portolan maps.

Though everything to do with the Library of Alexandria is suspicious.

Yes, but hopefully not completely fabricated.
Send private message
aurelius



View user's profile
Reply with quote

Furthermore, if I was the Librarian of such a collection at the time it was threatened by fire, religious or political zealotry or whatever I imagine I would try to save those documents which I thought would be of lasting value - and secrete them away somewhere.



This seems to me unlikely given that, we are told, the library was burned down rather suddenly by a mob. Would a librarian of that era think these specially valuable? And if so, wouldn't more copies have been made and survived? We moderns seem to be the only people obsessed with maps. A bit Conspiracy Theory but a runner nonetheless.


Yes I agree this is very arguable.

Certainly the Christian mobs who destroyed the Library (though everything about the Library is etc etc) were the IS of their time.


Julius Caesar was not a Christian. Aurelian worshipped the Sun God and persecuted Christians. Where do you get this from?



Should that cache fall under control of an illiterate or otherwise disinterested regime and population it may well not be noticed for hundreds of years, viz. the Oxyrhynchus Papyri which I have just read were rediscovered by the British in the 1890s (contents including fragments of Euclid, Euripedes etc.)


Not illiterate surely -- why would such people preserve documents?


I meant the documents had been successfully hidden and/or their existence had been covered up.

We need to push deeper.


Agree
Send private message
aurelius



View user's profile
Reply with quote

Wile E. Coyote wrote:
I like your imagination Auro, but if these are "functioning" they belonged to ancient seafaring/travelling folk. This is clearly why orthodoxy cant explain the Ravenna Cosmography. Orthodoxy is trying to make a map out of the Cosmography, but it neeeds to be understood through the eyes of the Portolan chart.

In the Ancient world...posh peoples' houses and Libraries is where you get Maps and Globes to wonder at.


Yes, purely functional. But I thought Rome was sacked by illiterate peoples -- or at least peoples who may not have appreciated the utilitarian value of the charts.....there should have been libraries of classical material in Rome as well as Alexandria...but I may be wrong.

Thanks for telling about the Cosmography -- hadn't come across this before...you may be right with the link but apparently it lists some stations along Hadrians Wall (for example) whereas the charts are only concerned with coasts and harbours (apparently).

The Mercator-like projection is quite something but Wiki says the classical Greek intellectuals thought the Earth was round rather than flat and the Romans tended to respect the Greeks' knowledge and build on it.
Send private message
Mick Harper
Site Admin

In: London
View user's profile
Reply with quote

But I thought Rome was sacked by illiterate peoples - or at least peoples who may not have appreciated the utilitarian value of the charts..

One of the sackers were the Vandals who became the dominant naval force in the Mediterranean shortly thereafter. For some reason.
Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next

Jump to:  
Page 1 of 3

MemberlistThe Library Index  FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group