| View previous topic :: View next topic |
Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
|
|
 |
|
| We know there are three languages in Scotland -- English, Gaelic and Norse. |
This is wrong. We know that Norse-speakers set up shop in Scotland at times but there is no reason (unless you care to give one) why we should place Norse in a different category from Welsh, Erse, Anglo-Saxon, Norman-French and other invader-of-Scotland languages.
| Why, because it goes without saying that anyone educated in Anglo-Saxon would have been educated in Latin, too? |
It is germane to point out that until about 1900 AD this was actually true for all languages in Britain. In Alfred's time it would be true (I think but it needs some more thought) that the mere possession of literacy means having Latin.
|
|
 |
|
 |
|
Brian Ambrose
|
|
|
|
| Why, because it goes without saying that anyone educated in Anglo-Saxon would have been educated in Latin, too? |
No, that's not what I meant. If we take it that Alfred was talking about commoner English, the old stuff, the looked down upon 'cos it wasn't Anglo Saxon unofficial stuff...then his lament makes sense; only the un-educated old fashioned southerner spoke it and these obviously, being un-educated, couldn't translate to/from Latin. To get someone who could translate to/from Latin you needed to go up north, where old fashioned English was still in use by the educated classes and was the common language.
| All the Anglo-Saxons -- and one might say, especially King Alf -- used the term English as a synonym for Anglo-Saxon. As for 'educated people' he didn't think of the local population as 'people' at all. |
But this doesn't make sense of Alfred, who I am suggesting was a bit loose in his references to 'English' (a bit tenuous I agree). Why could he not find any educated, southern, Anglo-Saxon speakers south of the Humber that understood Latin?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
|
|
|
|
I think you've got the general situation all wrong, Bri. As I understand it, Anglo-Saxon society was totally non-literate except for a tiny few who did the scribal work for Church and State. It wasn't even particularly high status -- hence Alfred trying to make it more so by claiming he could do it too. However, by Alf's time there was (presumably because of general economic and cultural advance) a much wider need for scribes as a matter of urgent state policy..
Basically he was saying that Northumbria had done better in this regard than Wessex. Since English (our English, not Anglo-Saxon) was an unwritten language it actually follows that English-speakers would themselves be Anglo-Saxon speakers as well! Much like in Roman times Native Brits who were literate must have been Latin-speakers too.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Ishmael
In: Toronto
|
|
|
|
|
This Alfred dude. When was his testimony regarding language distribution discovered? When did these documents enter the historical record?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
|
|
|
|
|
Yes, he's a prime candidate for forgery. Especially all that guff about the importance of literacy. Very Thomas More.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Ishmael
In: Toronto
|
|
|
|
|
Presuming Thomas More is very Thomas More.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
|
|
|
|
|
Well, Ishmael, isn't it time you took an overview of your radical revisionism and decided at what point (if there is a point) when history is to be relied on? My own feeling is that the fourteenth century, when tax rolls start being the voluminous historical record, is pretty much it.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Ishmael
In: Toronto
|
|
|
|
| Mick Harper wrote: | | Well, Ishmael, isn't it time you took an overview of your radical revisionism and decided at what point (if there is a point) when history is to be relied on? My own feeling is that the fourteenth century, when tax rolls start being the voluminous historical record, is pretty much it. |
I'm thinking 15th. But I don't speak of such things in polite society.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Brian Ambrose
|
|
|
|
| I think you've got the general situation all wrong, Bri. |
Fair enough, I bow to your superior understanding of the assumptions. But I still think the north of the Humber thing is a bit odd.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
"I still think the north of the Humber thing is a bit odd"
There are a number of factors about the north of England that don't seem to have been mentioned yet and may be relevant here.
1. Irish monks such as Columba and Aidan were working away in Northumberland (on Lindisfarne and maybe elsewhere) converting the natives and writing texts - did that include the Book of Kells or was that written somewhere else.
2. the P or was it Q form of Gaelic was at that time spoken in Lowland Scotland and perhaps in Northumberland - the Irish monks must have spoken this
3. then of course there was the Danelaw which ruled north of the Humber for a while
Sorry I don't have a clear picture of how these influences all interacted and the exact time course but I am surpised they have not been mentioned in this discussion.
_________________
Oliver
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
|
|
|
|
First off, who says there's a problem? If somebody would say exactly what it is, we might be able to address it. Brian quoting a chance remark by King Alfred seems to be the evidence. But let's find out:
| 1. Irish monks such as Columba and Aidan were working away in Northumberland (on Lindisfarne and maybe elsewhere) converting the natives and writing texts - did that include the Book of Kells or was that written somewhere else. |
There does seem to be a south-east/north-west religious split. And we all know what 'religious' means in these times. With the Celtic Church edging in from one side and Rome from the other. Of course this dovetails nicely with the Celtic/English split (or even orthodoxy's Celtic/Anglo-Saxon split). And yes "the north" seems to be cast into the wrong camp ie being English-speakers under Celtic cultural influences....worth thinking about.
| 2. the P or was it Q form of Gaelic was at that time spoken in Lowland Scotland and perhaps in Northumberland - the Irish monks must have spoken this |
What evidence do you have for this? There were plenty of people recorded as being in Lowland Scotland speaking both forms of Celtic (the Welsh and the Irish for starters...let's not get into Picts and Gaels). But they are known to be invading elites -- it's right there in the Annals. But I don't know of any Celtic-speakers reaching Northumberland. A few monks on Lindisfarne possibly. The assumption is that English-speakers dominated both areas at all times. (As opposed to Anglo-Saxon speakers who are also known to be ruling elites in both areas.)
| 3. then of course there was the Danelaw which ruled north of the Humber for a while |
Would this make any difference? Does anybody speak Danish in the north? Does anybody speak Danish-inflected English in the north? And the boundary is not really very north-south: London was Danish for yonks (hence Clement Danes and stuff like that). Hey...clement Danes...there's irony for you.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
|
|
|
|
| there is no reason (unless you care to give one) why we should place Norse in a different category from Welsh, Erse, Anglo-Saxon, Norman-French and other invader-of-Scotland languages. |
How do we know the Picts were not other invaders-of-Scotland?
How do we know the native stratum reached the consciousness of those making mention of Pictish shenanigans?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
|
|
|
|
| I still think the north of the Humber thing is a bit odd |
Seems to have something to do with this perception that Scots is closer to Middle English than anything else. Need to think on't.
| Sorry I don't have a clear picture of how these influences all interacted and the exact time course but I am surpised they have not been mentioned in this discussion. |
I did mention the Celtic church... the language of Lowland Scotland is precisely what is at issue... and the Danelaw ruled well south of the Humber, too.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Is this the Danelaw?
Have you looked at the distribution of surnames as a way of studying regions and testing some of your ideas or extending them - Mick or anybody else? There has been quite a bit of work on mapping of surnames. I suspect the Home Office funds some of it because it can be used together with DNA results for Y chromosomes to track down criminals. Apparently surnames seem to stay in particular regions for yonks.
We all know patronymic and metronymic names are used by Scandinavians even today in Iceland. So What about Thompson, Hodgkinson, Johnson etc - and what about Pearson an English version of the Scandinavian Persson - Pers being a name not used in modern Britain and perhaps an identifier of a more Norse heritage.
I wanted to put up a map here of the "Distribution of patronymic and metronymic surnames by parish, 1881" which can be found at
http://www.casa.ucl.ac.uk/surnames/papers/schurer.pdf. I couldn't manage to move it over - maybe someone else can do it. It suggests that in Britain patronymics (which I take to be mostly of "-son" type) and metronymics (mother's name) follow a geographical distribution of what was, I imagine, the Danelaw. There is a lot more to this which can be appreciated by reading the essay by Schurer at the above site.
I have come to all this correspondence rather late and so don't know if I am teachng grandmothers to suck eggs here. But hope a surname investigation may prove a more fruitful line of inquiry than Robbie Burns. There are a number of sites that charge to tell you the distribution of surnames. There is also, or was, a site that does it free attached to the Social and Economic Research Council. I wanted to put Harper into one of these sites and find out if it is a real name and where it started but didn't want to spare the five quid they wanted for the job.
_________________
Oliver
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
|
|
|
|
| Apparently surnames seem to stay in particular regions for yonks. |
I was under the impression that surnames are a relatively recent introduction and that people were known by first names plus moniker referring to personal attributes.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
The Library Index 
FAQ 
Search
Register
Profile 
Log in to check your private messages 
Log in 
