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Mick Harper and the Dinosaurs (NEW CONCEPTS)
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aurelius



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Boreades wrote:
Perhaps because most of 'dinosauria' were marine semi warm-blooded mammals, not land semi warm-blooded mammals?


The Dinosauria consists of:

†Ornithischia
†Stegosauria
†Ankylosauria
†Ornithopoda
†Ceratopsia
Saurischia
†Sauropodomorpha
Theropoda

from Wikipedia. Clade: Dinosauriformes

Ichthyosaurs = clade Eiochthyosauria, wiki also has the clades for the other major groups of marine reptiles.

This may seem pedantic but the crocodile like reptiles crop up in the fossil record before the Dinosaurs and of course their descendants are still with us today.
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Boreades


In: finity and beyond
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So what? Crocodile have got legs and can go on land.
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aurelius



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I'm not sure what your point is Boreades, about crocodiles though what you say is inarguable.

I know I haven't got around to responding to your Swindon scenario yet, but the original questions, were, I think,

1) the implication, raised by Ishmael, that Mick may have had something to say about whether we can rely on stratigraphy to prove Dinosaurs didn't survive into the human era,

and

2) Duncan71 pondering why some creatures survived the event and why some didn't.
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Ishmael


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The only mechanism observed to produce extinction events is invasive species.

Therefore, the AE position is that the dinosaurs were extinguished by the arrival on Earth of an invasive species of extra-terrestrial origin.
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aurelius



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Ishmael wrote:
The only mechanism observed to produce extinction events is invasive species.

Therefore, the AE position is that the dinosaurs were extinguished by the arrival on Earth of an invasive species of extra-terrestrial origin.


Hmmm..that would include all those species that humans hunted to death: Dodo, Passenger Pigeon and so on. What about the Mammoth? AE would have to be categorical it was hunted to death but can we be sure?

Much to my surprise I found a cave painting of one as an old BBC clip.
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Roger Stone


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"The only mechanism observed to produce extinction events is invasive species.

Therefore, the AE position is that the dinosaurs were extinguished by the arrival on Earth of an invasive species of extra-terrestrial origin."

Ishmael, what exactly do you mean by "Therefore" in this startling statement?
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Duncan71


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aurelius wrote:
Is it true that, outside of Creationist fantasies, no dinosaur fossil has ever been found after the KT event?


Not entirely true. There have been some studies that have entertained the idea of pockets of survivors making it past the KT event in a few areas. None have proposed that dinosaurids were still widespread or survived for more than a few hundred thousand years. Having said that all of these studies are considered highly controversial at this time.

It is interesting to note that in a fair number of locations there is no evidence of dinosaur fossils within three metres or more (on the Cretaceous side) of the iridium rich layer often used to indicate the KT boundary. The dating for this layer varies from region to region and for the most part is only found in terrestrial deposits in North America (The deposits in other locales of the world are largely aquatic in origin).
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Duncan71


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aurelius wrote:

Hard to explain how the soft bodied terrestrial amphibians survived..


Which is one of the major criticisms of the impact theory as amphibians are very sensitive the kinds of environmental changes proposed by that theory.

However, amphibians habitats are normally quite proof to ionized radiation which has been proposed as another possible cause of the KT extinction event. Essentially a solar flare of gargantuan proportions overcame the earth's magnetic field causing a massive irradiation of the planet. Fossils from around the KT event have been found to be highly radioactive (well ... compared to what is considered to be normal). Admittedly this proposal has found little traction in the current scientific community.
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Duncan71


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Ishmael wrote:
The only mechanism observed to produce extinction events is invasive species.

Therefore, the AE position is that the dinosaurs were extinguished by the arrival on Earth of an invasive species of extra-terrestrial origin.


'Invasive species' certainly the only mechanism that has been readily observed in the current era to cause massive damage to biological diversity. (Before others suggest 'habitat destruction' as a top factor consider that it is part and parcel with the fact that humans are certainly the top of the invasive species list in the current era). If 'what is is what was' then the mechanism almost certainly has happened several times before.

I myself would tend to consider more terrestrial sources such as the chaos unleashed when earthborn terrestrial or aquatic bioregions with extremely different ecologies suddenly find themselves conjoined. At least this has some precedent. However, although at first glance it seems like a major stretch, if Ishmael would care to elaborate on his statement so as to walk us through the logic I'm all ears. Extra-terrestrial species, especially those able to modify their environment in manners more extensive than we've managed so far certainly have the potential to be major 'shit disturbers'.
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aurelius



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Thank you Duncan71, I've learned a lot from that.

It makes sense that many fossils have been destroyed by glaciation, including earlier ice ages than the Quaternary, but not all as Mick's statement demands. If that were true then the dinosaurs and all other prehistoric life must have been around since the Quaternary. A concept worth considering of course but one I personally cannot accept. None have been depicted in cave art, for example.

Glaciation will remove the top layers and any convoluted strata where older deposits find themselves at the surface.

Even the 'Snowball Earth', if a true condition of the planet, did not eradicate earlier fossils.
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Chad


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Ishmael wrote:
The only mechanism observed to produce extinction events is invasive species.

Therefore, the AE position is that the dinosaurs were extinguished by the arrival on Earth of an invasive species of extra-terrestrial origin.

This is a little mischievous.

Observed extinction events have always been caused by interaction with other Earthly species, so to hypothesise an extra-terrestrial involvement in dinosaur extinction is unnecessary and thus a corruption of AE principles.

Therefore, the AE position is that the dinosaurs were extinguished by contact with another (previously unencountered) Earthly species.
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Ishmael


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aurelius wrote:
that would include all those species that humans hunted to death:


Include. But not limited to.
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Ishmael


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Chad wrote:
Observed extinction events have always been caused by interaction with other Earthly species,
True.

so to hypothesise an extra-terrestrial involvement in dinosaur extinction is unnecessary and thus a corruption of AE principles.
Not true.

All observed extinctions were of single species with regional habitats. With dinosaurs, you have multiple species in every conceivable biome of the Earth, from the deepest depths of the sea to the tallest volcano---all wiped out.

Unless there is some way to fence off part of the Earth (not inconceivable) and grow there the invader capable of destroying every other eco-niche on the biosphere, you've really got no choice but to look to other planets---which we know already would provide the closed and isolated environment necessary. We have at least observed other worlds, wholly isolated from our own. We have yet to observe life there, but we have observed it here and our planet is likely to be rather unremarkable.

This is a little mischievous.
Also true.
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aurelius



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You do have a choice.

A terrestrial event such as the flood of lava produced by the Deccan traps could have adversely affected the Dinosauria, marine reptiles and other groups if a significant part of their food chain was knocked out. Pterosaurs would have been decimated if their food source was pelagic fish.

Then an event such as a meteorite impact, extra-terrestrial in origin could have finished them off. We have evidence of previous meteoritic impacts but none of extra-terrestrials, so far.
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Ishmael


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aurelius wrote:
A terrestrial event such as the flood of lava produced by the Deccan traps could have adversely affected the Dinosauria, marine reptiles and other groups if a significant part of their food chain was knocked out.


Has this ever been observed to extinguish a species?

Then an event such as a meteorite impact, extra-terrestrial in origin could have finished them off.


Has this ever been observed to extinguish a species?
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