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Meta-Skepticism: Was Jesus Story Written Middle Ages? (History)
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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The one place on Earth where the water was pushed back and dry land appeared is Holland.

The Netherlands is the birthplace of Protestantism/Christianity.

Was Moses the Pharaoh who built the dykes and there led the people out of bondage?
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Boreades


In: finity and beyond
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No, Moses was a monotheistic maniac running around the Middle East. After being rejected by his own people and booted out of Egypt. But you could try his cousin Scoti, who went north west instead of east. Or Doggerland, which might have been Troy.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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What is it about this website that it attracts such a disproportionate number of wierdos?
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aurelius



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N R Scott wrote:
Jesus & Jester. Very nice!


A woman just gave birth to a prince today and dressed him in scarlet
He'll put the priest in his pocket, put the blade to the heat,
Take the motherless children off the street
And place them at the feet of a harlot
Oh, Jokerman, you know what he wants,
Oh, Jokerman, you don't show any response

Jokerman dance to the nightingale tune,
Bird fly high by the light of the moon,
Oh, oh, oh, Jokerman

Bob Dylan - Jokerman Lyrics | Jesus or Jester?

http://www.metrolyrics.com/jokerman-lyrics-bob-dylan.html
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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Anyone who can work out which St Augustine Bob is referring to gets a free copy of our new book 'Who Was St Augustine?' Otherwise you'll have to buy it (under its real title) for £12.95 plus p & p when it comes out later this month like everyone else. Like no-one else if recent form is anything to go by.

I dreamed I saw St. Augustine
Alive as you or me
Tearing through these quarters
In the utmost misery
With a blanket underneath his arm
And a coat of solid gold
Searching for the very souls
Whom already have been sold

“Arise, arise,” he cried so loud
In a voice without restraint
“Come out, ye gifted kings and queens
And hear my sad complaint
No martyr is among ye now
Whom you can call your own
So go on your way accordingly
But know you’re not alone”

I dreamed I saw St. Augustine
Alive with fiery breath
And I dreamed I was amongst the ones
That put him out to death
Oh, I awoke in anger
So alone and terrified
I put my fingers against the glass
And bowed my head and cried
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aurelius



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Dylanologist Michael Gray claims (assumes?) it is St Augustine of Hippo, who died in Hippo 430 AD when the Vandals were taking the handles.

Bob's well-read and could easily have absorbed Confessions. Less likely he'd read anything by the other.
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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Dylanologist Michael Gray claims (assumes?) it is St Augustine of Hippo, who died in Hippo 430 AD when the Vandals were taking the handles.

Only a Dylanologist.... It's worth pointing out that Americans probably wouldn't have heard of ours. It's a marketing factor for our book.

Bob's well-read

Not according to my own Dylanologist (a History PhD) who told me proudly that his hero was a complete ignoramus.

and could easily have absorbed Confessions.

Just possible I suppose on poetic grounds.

Less likely he'd read anything by the other.

Is there anything? I'd better check. Blimey, that could be fatal!

I dreamed I saw St. Augustine Alive as you or meTearing through these quarters In the utmost misery

Both St A's seemed to have lived lives of the utmost success and happiness.

With a blanket underneath his arm And a coat of solid gold Searching for the very souls Whom already have been sold

Fits neither or both.

“Arise, arise,” he cried so loud In a voice without restraint “Come out, ye gifted kings and queens And hear my sad complaint

Fits our St A at the court of King Aethelberht of Kent and his Frankish queen, England's first Roman Catholic. Not d'Hippo.

No martyr is among ye now Whom you can call your own So go on your way accordingly But know you’re not alone”

Neither is associated with martyrs as far as I know

I dreamed I saw St. Augustine Alive with fiery breath And I dreamed I was amongst the ones That put him out to death

Neither was martyred.

Oh, I awoke in anger So alone and terrified I put my fingers against the glass And bowed my head and cried

My guess is that 'St Augustine' was chosen because it scanned. Dylan neither knew nor cared and knew his fans wouldn't either. And so it has proved. He'll be able to tell us himself when he reads the book. He'd better not try sucking up to me, that's all I ask.
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aurelius



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Is there anything? I'd better check. Blimey, that could be fatal!


Nothing I could find except

Known writings:

helped Ethelbert to draft the earliest Anglo-Saxon written laws to survive.


http://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/pages/augustine-1st-archbishop-of-canterbury.html

which I think from memory you already have covered.

My guess is that 'St Augustine' was chosen because it scanned. Dylan neither knew nor cared and knew his fans wouldn't either. And so it has proved.


I wondered about the alleged martydom myself when I read the lyrics, have to agree. Quite in character with other Dylan obfustication.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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I dreamed I saw St. Augustine
Alive with fiery breath
And I dreamed I was amongst the ones
That put him out to death


It is Jesus who has "fiery breath." In the New Testament, his tongue is a flaming sword. It's the same sort of imagery used here.

I suspect Bob is indeed referring to Jesus. Calling him St. Augustine is like saying, That August Saint---or the highest of saints.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Funny.

This is unrelated to the Dylan song but the name Augustine---it is the equivalent of August Tsar. That is, a great king.

I have a feeling that the original for Augustine is no other than Solomon himself. His wisdom is recorded in Christianity as that of St. Augustine and Solomon. In the Jewish tradition, it is Solomon alone. Probably neither set of writings are actually those of the August Tzar. All were created centuries later in homage to the original which was likely destroyed for being theologically out-of-date.
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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He once played a big gig at St Augustine, Florida, the oldest city in North America. He didn't play it or refer to it! Nuff said.
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Boreades


In: finity and beyond
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Ishmael wrote:
It is Jesus who has "fiery breath." In the New Testament, his tongue is a flaming sword. It's the same sort of imagery used here.


Was Jesus a Dragon?
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Brilliant!
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Boreades


In: finity and beyond
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Mick Harper wrote:
My guess is that 'St Augustine' was chosen because it scanned. Dylan neither knew nor cared and knew his fans wouldn't either. And so it has proved. He'll be able to tell us himself when he reads the book. He'd better not try sucking up to me, that's all I ask.


I dreamed I saw St. Augustine
Alive with fiery breath
And I dreamed I was amongst the ones
That put him out to death


It might have scanned better if he’d said

I dreamed I saw The Essene
Alive with fiery breath
And I dreamed I was amongst the ones
That put him out to death


Ishmael wrote:
It is Jesus who has "fiery breath." In the New Testament, his tongue is a flaming sword. It's the same sort of imagery used here.


John is said to have envisaged the one to come as immersing people into the river of God’s fiery breath as it flowed from heaven. “I baptise you with water but he will baptise you with the Holy Spirit and fire.”


This is symbolic of a cleansing and rebirth. Similar to Kundalini Yoga where the serpent spirit is awakened within a person with raised consciousness.

Which might nicely provide a better origin of the Paulian/Roman habit of describing anyone who spoke up and opposed them as Dragons (which needed dealing with, with extreme prejudice). None of this radical personal-enlightenment and/or raising-of-consciousness nonsense had any place to play in their New Roman World Order.

So no coincidence that the Romans found Dragons in Judea as well as Britannia. The description of vocal opponents as Dragons may have become a habit that stuck and persisted in the Roman Christian Church.

See also the Naassenes : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naassenes
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Dylan has a pretty bleak vision. No more Saints and Martyrs etc. (I can't help thinking I know who he is referring to)

Stranglers did it better, No more Heroes. More fun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pg2np37JNEg
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