MemberlistThe Library Index  FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
Vaxine (Health)
Reply to topic Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Chad wrote:


As I said, I don't remember any such campaign, but I do remember the vaccination campaign. We have evidence of this campaign and data showing how its introduction correlates with the reduction in polio cases.



You have evidence if you can show that the way polio was diagnosed and counted in Britain before the introduction of the vaccination campaign was exactly the same way as after the campaign.

If not, you are not comparing like with like.

In America they changed the way polio was diagnosed at the same time as the field trials and polio campaign were introduced.

So we are not comparing like with like.

You merely have to show that the British managed this, and there is not a rise in non polio paralysis cases.

If you do this you question India and the latest World Health figures which show this cannot be done.

Of course you can fall back on your old standby that the cost of increasing non polio paralysis cases are worth it.

You have serious ethical problems here, but you might also want to consider which cases are more lethal....
Send private message
Tilo Rebar


In: Sussex
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Chad wrote:
...But joking aside, can you provide details of this organised campaign to improve food hygiene in the 50's, or did our dinner ladies spontaneously clean up their acts, outside the gaze of... well me at least?...


Food Hygiene Regulations 1955, which was part of the 1955 Food and Drugs Act, covered:-

Regulations as to food hygiene.

Power of court to disqualify caterers.

Byelaws into sale and handling of food.

Copy of the 'Arrangement of Section' here...
http://www.reading.ac.uk/foodlaw/uk/foodanddrugsact1955-a.PDF

Food poisoning data is proving more difficult to find.
Send private message
Chad


In: Ramsbottom
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Wile E. Coyote wrote:
You merely have to show that the British managed this, and there is not a rise in non polio paralysis cases.

Wiley, if you are right we should be seeing thousands of case of AFP in the UK and the reduction in polio in the fifties and sixties should have been accompanied by an increase in childhood paralysis attributed to other causes. I can find no evidence of this... perhaps you can.
Send private message
Chad


In: Ramsbottom
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Tilo Rebar wrote:
Food Hygiene Regulations 1955, which was part of the 1955 Food and Drugs Act, covered:-

Regulations as to food hygiene.

Power of court to disqualify caterers.

Byelaws into sale and handling of food.

Copy of the 'Arrangement of Section' here...
http://www.reading.ac.uk/foodlaw/uk/foodanddrugsact1955-a.PDF

This is better Tilo, but I think you may have been a little unfair to our much maligned dinner ladies.

If you remember, you wrote earlier:

Those at risk mainly live in areas with poor sanitation, with the most vulnerable members of the population being pregnant women, the very young and those with a weakened immune system...

No mention of school children. (And the polio victims I remember personally, all (3) contracted the disease before they started school.)

So come on, I think you owe them an apology.

Right then, if dinner ladies are off the hook, which members of the catering industry were actually to blame?

You mentioned Indian and Chinese takeaways... Sorry sunshine, not in the 1950s.

So that only really leaves the local chippy.

Are you laying the blame for the polio epidemic on their doorstep?

And was the 1955 Act, implemented with such rigor down the chippy, that polio would soon become a thing of the past?
Send private message
Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Chad wrote:
Wile E. Coyote wrote:
You merely have to show that the British managed this, and there is not a rise in non polio paralysis cases.

Wiley, if you are right we should be seeing thousands of case of AFP in the UK and the reduction in polio in the fifties and sixties should have been accompanied by an increase in childhood paralysis attributed to other causes. I can find no evidence of this... perhaps you can.


Hey wasn't me that chose a battleground from 60 years ago. I look at the very very old, and the most recent and current datasets and draw my conclusions.

You are simply not comparing like with like.
Send private message
Tilo Rebar


In: Sussex
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Chad wrote:
...So come on, I think you owe them [dinner ladies] an apology...


I don't think dinner ladies can get off the hook that easily.

Most people infected with the polio virus have no signs of the illness and are never aware they have been infected, you see.

These symptomless people, including school kids like young Johnny, carry the virus in their intestines for a few weeks and can 'silently' spread the infection to their parents and siblings in their home and that of their friends. This is how pregnant mums, babies and toddlers become infected, as young Johnny can never be arsed to wash his hand after using the toilet.

Schools provide the ideal environment for the dissemination of all sorts of epidemic diseases, as well as for education - we hope.
Send private message
Chad


In: Ramsbottom
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Wile E. Coyote wrote:
Chad wrote:
Wile E. Coyote wrote:
You merely have to show that the British managed this, and there is not a rise in non polio paralysis cases.

Wiley, if you are right we should be seeing thousands of case of AFP in the UK and the reduction in polio in the fifties and sixties should have been accompanied by an increase in childhood paralysis attributed to other causes. I can find no evidence of this... perhaps you can.


Hey wasn't me that chose a battleground from 60 years ago. I look at the very very old, and the most recent and current datasets and draw my conclusions.

You are simply not comparing like with like.

In other words, you couldn't find any evidence of an increase in childhood paralysis, attributed to causes other than polio, in the UK after the introduction of mass polio vaccination.

I didn't think you would.
Send private message
Chad


In: Ramsbottom
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Tilo Rebar wrote:
Chad wrote:
...So come on, I think you owe them [dinner ladies] an apology...


I don't think dinner ladies can get off the hook that easily.

Most people infected with the polio virus have no signs of the illness and are never aware they have been infected, you see.

These symptomless people, including school kids like young Johnny, carry the virus in their intestines for a few weeks and can 'silently' spread the infection to their parents and siblings in their home and that of their friends. This is how pregnant mums, babies and toddlers become infected, as young Johnny can never be arsed to wash his hand after using the toilet.

Schools provide the ideal environment for the dissemination of all sorts of epidemic diseases, as well as for education - we hope.

This would be thrown out of court immediately, due to lack of evidence.

I still think you would do better trying to pin it on the chippies.
Send private message
Ishmael


In: Toronto
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Chad wrote:
As for Acute Flaccid Paralysis, this is not a single disease but a general grouping together of many viral and bacterial conditions that result in acute paralysis.


I don't know anything about AFP but I do know that this situation ought to raise the suspicions of all Applied Epistemologists.
Send private message
Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Chad wrote:

In other words, you couldn't find any evidence of an increase in childhood paralysis, attributed to causes other than polio, in the UK after the introduction of mass polio vaccination.

I didn't think you would.


I can't find any evidence because they were not looking out for and measuring this in the period. GPs were engaged in a noble cause to eradicate polio. There is nothing wrong in admitting that evidence might not be there, because of a poorer understanding of paralysis type illness.

I merely point out the definition of poliovirus changed around 1959 and became more stringent (testing in stools), so you would expect to have seen polio virus cases fall anyway.

You have already admitted it is fair game for Authorities to distort the mortality stats in relation to measles. It is good you are now advocating a more evidence based approach at least for those that disagree with you. But that does not mean to say that the evidence is always there.

The trend for polio was likewise down before the introduction of polio vaccination, in Britain, based on GPs' perception of paralysis without testing. So you were looking at a downward trend anyway. Tibor believes this trend was due to health and sanitation. Presumably housing, indoor toilets and reductions in overcrowding would also be significant. But who knows?

The current more reliable WHO India evidence you choose to ignore.
Send private message
Chad


In: Ramsbottom
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Wile E. Coyote wrote:
You have already admitted it is fair game for Authorities to distort the mortality stats in relation to measles.

I most certainly have not.

What I actually said was:

To sell these programs to the public, the authorities may over emphasize the mortality issue (and who can blame them?)

No distortion... simply placing the emphasis on the life saving rather than cost saving potential of mass vaccination (even though the prime motivation may in fact be financial)

I would never advocate the distortion of statistics. But it would be foolish not to emphasis the point likely to garner maximum support.
Send private message
Chad


In: Ramsbottom
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Since you are struggling to come up with any evidence in support of your argument, I'm seriously considering jumping over the fence and presenting a plausible counter argument myself.

(I am perfectly entitled to do this... being a self-proclaimed non-aligned polyskeptic.)
Send private message
Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
View user's profile
Reply with quote

You are sharpening your scalpel.

Chad wrote:
(I am perfectly entitled to do this... being a self-proclaimed non-aligned polyskeptic.)


Coyote is a trickster.
Send private message
Chad


In: Ramsbottom
View user's profile
Reply with quote

O.k. we have two conundrums....

Tilo would like to demonstrate that the 1955 Food Hygiene Act played a significant role in the elimination of childhood paralysis in the UK... but is unable to find any data that separates its effect from the effect of the mass polio vaccination program launched that same year.

Wiley expected to find that the number of cases of childhood paralysis, attributed to causes other than polio, had risen in the UK (as seems to have happened in India).... but is unable to find any evidence in support of this notion.

They simply need to work together....
Send private message
Ishmael


In: Toronto
View user's profile
Reply with quote

But my goodness Chad; this undermines the case for vaccination.

  1. UK introduces Food Hygene program and polio vaccine = Childhood paralysis eliminated.
  2. India introduces only the polio vaccine (no Food Hygiene program) = Childhood paralysis not eliminated.

My question then: Has childhood paralysis been reduced in incidence in India?
Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

Jump to:  
Page 5 of 6

MemberlistThe Library Index  FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group