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Vaxine (Health)
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Chad


In: Ramsbottom
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Yes, yes. The anti-vaccine lobby always plot these graphs against mortality. But as I said before, that isn't the whole picture.

We know mortality was already under control, but the cost of keeping it under control (in terms of hospitalisation, pharmacology and ongoing debilitation) is a heavy burden on society.

The object of most vaccination programs, is to reduce the incidence of disease and its associated costs (financial and otherwise).

To sell these programs to the public, the authorities may over emphasize the mortality issue (and who can blame them?) but take the politics out of it and you will see that mass vaccination (despite the inevitable side effects) bestows a net benefit on society.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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I wasn't making any point. Just asking for commentary and potential rebuttal.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Chad wrote:
Yes, yes. The anti-vaccine lobby always plot these graphs against mortality.


Chad wrote:

To sell these programs to the public, the authorities may over emphasize the mortality issue (and who can blame them?)


Hey...Certainly not the anti-vaccine lobby.....you would have thought the Authorities would have worked this out by now....they are playing straight into the opposition's hands.

What a strange world we inhabit.
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Chad


In: Ramsbottom
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Wiley, forget mortality (we all agree that it was already on the decline before mass vaccination) but if you want to have a real debate about the benefits of mass vaccination, I'm all ears...

Perhaps you could demonstrate that the number of kids who hobble through their entire childhood on calipers (due to the effects of poliomyelitis) has been unaffected by mass vaccination... Or maybe that the number of kids with dodgy eyes (due to measles infection) would have declined anyway, even without measles vaccine... I could go on.

Maybe you're too young to remember kids like this in the fifties and sixties... but I went to school with them.

So come on, lets see some real evidence that mass vaccination is ineffective.

And by the way, much of the reduction in mortality was down to the deployment of that other evil product of Big Pharma... antibiotics.
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Chad


In: Ramsbottom
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In 1950 there were 7760 cases of polio in England (with 755 mortalities).

This is what was in store for a badly affected survivor:

There is no 'cure' for polio. The focus of modern treatment has been on providing relief of symptoms, speeding recovery and preventing complications. Supportive measures include 'antibiotics' to prevent infections in weakened muscles, 'analgesics' for pain, moderate exercise and a nutritious diet.....Treatment of polio often requires long-term rehabilitation, including 'occupational therapy', physical therapy, braces, corrective shoes and, in some cases, orthopedic surgery.
Portable 'ventilators' may be required to support breathing. Historically, a noninvasive, negative-pressure ventilator, more commonly called an iron lung, was used to artificially maintain respiration during an acute polio infection until a person could breathe independently (generally about one to two weeks).

Polio vaccine was introduced in 1955.

There have been no reported cases in the UK since 1998.

Leaving aside the saving in human misery, the cost saving to the NHS has been astronomical.
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Tilo Rebar


In: Sussex
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Strange disease polio. Although, as Chad explains, polio can cause paralysis and death, the vast majority of people who are infected with the polio virus (90+%) don't become sick and are never even aware they've been infected with the disease.

Of those who do feel ill, ~90% just suffer a few days of flu-like symptoms, but a small proportion go on to develop the more serious and well known debilitating and potentially fatal complications when the virus enter the spinal column/brain.

Polio's only vector is Homo Sapiens, with the virus entering the environment in the faeces of someone who is infected. The polio virus spreads primarily through the faecal-oral route, when personal hygiene is lacking.

Those at risk mainly live in areas with poor sanitation, with the most vulnerable members of the population being pregnant women, the very young and those with a weakened immune system (e.g. HIV sufferers).

So I think this begs the question as to how much of the reduction in the incidence of polio was due to the 1950's mass vaccination programme and how much because of improvements in sanitation and personal hygiene, particularly amongst those working in the catering industry?
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YE4IIGTzWdY

This was a debate on the BBC. The programme is around the eradication of polio.

A unexpected devastating critique comes in at 6+ minutes from Dr Puliyel, who is wonderfully polite and reserved and chooses his words with great care.

"I do not believe this vertical programme has improved anything where public health is concerned and that the US$8 billion was well spent if at least we learn never to spend money again on a vertical programme like this in the future....

And for anyone who is thinking this is simple.

He states an additional 61,000 non polio paralysis cases in India associated with polio vaccination campaigns; (presumably these are assumed as non polio as....they occur in children that have been vaccinated)

Yes Tibor polio is a very strange disease...
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Chad


In: Ramsbottom
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Strange disease polio. Although, as Chad explains, polio can cause paralysis and death, the vast majority of people who are infected with the polio virus (90+%) don't become sick and are never even aware they've been infected with the disease.

Quite right. So there were probably somewhere in the order of a hundred thousand cases of polio infection in England in 1950... In a few short decades it was totally eradicated from the UK.

Polio's only vector is Homo Sapiens, with the virus entering the environment in the faeces of someone who is infected. The polio virus spreads primarily through the faecal-oral route, when personal hygiene is lacking.

By 1963 (eight years after the launch of mass vaccination) the number of reported cases in England had dropped to just 51.

If this was due to improvements in personal hygiene (and don't forget this was still the era of outside toilets and tin baths in front of the fire) it must have been one hell of a well orchestrated and heavily publicised clean-up campaign... The thing is, I don't remember any such campaign. (I do however remember the mass vaccination campaign.)

Those at risk mainly live in areas with poor sanitation, with the most vulnerable members of the population being pregnant women, the very young and those with a weakened immune system (e.g. HIV sufferers).

HIV sufferers? 1950s?

If you are going to cut and paste from Wiki, at least edit out the irrelevant bits.

So I think this begs the question as to how much of the reduction in the incidence of polio was due to the 1950's mass vaccination programme and how much because of improvements in sanitation and personal hygiene, particularly amongst those working in the catering industry?

This part really made me chuckle.

The folk who were vulnerable to polio in England in the fifties had absolutely no interaction with any sort of catering industry that could possibly infect them to that sort of degree... Food was prepared and cooked in the home and any improvements in hygiene had to come from there to be effective.

What you have to remember is that polio has not just been eradicated from the UK, but worldwide we are now down to (literally) just a handful of cases and they are confined to Nigeria, India, Pakistan and Afghanistan. Last year I believe there were only 4 or 5 reported cases globally (compared to over 7000 cases in England alone in 1950).

So if this dramatic decline is down to hygiene alone, then the entire planetary human population must now have infinitely better personal hygiene habits than the English had in the 1950s.
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Chad


In: Ramsbottom
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Wile E. Coyote wrote:
He states an additional 61,000 non polio paralysis cases in India associated with polio vaccination campaigns; (presumably these are assumed as non polio as....they occur in children that have been vaccinated)

No Wily, I think what he is saying is that the additional 61,000 paralysis cases were directly attributable to the vaccine itself.

If this is the case, it still does not detract from the efficacy of the mass vaccination campaign... The virtual elimination of the disease in the Sub-Continent attests to its success.

I have said all along that vaccines have the potential to cause harm, but this is outweighed by the overall benefits.

It is not unusual for the vaccines used in these Third World programs to be produced locally and be rather more vigorous with greater risk of side effects.... But in the Grand Scheme of things it was probably a cost worth paying.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Chad wrote:

Quite right. So there were probably somewhere in the order of a hundred thousand cases of polio infection in England in 1950... In a few short decades it was totally eradicated from the UK.

Chad wrote:

By 1963 (eight years after the launch of mass vaccination) the number of reported cases in England had dropped to just 51.


But are you sure you're measuring like with like?

The Indian example and figures from WHO paint a different picture.

http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Rise-of-Acute-Flaccid-Paralysis-AFP-and-Fall-of-Polio.jpg

The introduction of the vaccine is brought in with stringent specific testing on stools for poliovirus, there is no longer a widespread 50s assumption that paralysis in most cases equals what they thought of as polio.

If you bring in more stringent tests for a disease (this occurred in the US in the late 50s) not surprisingly numbers fall, but you then have other diseases.

The graph shows non polio paralysis (thought by my Indian Doctor to be twice as lethal as polio...) rising..

I would hazard a guess that you are simply not comparing like with like in the British figure you quote.
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Chad


In: Ramsbottom
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You cannot blame polio vaccine for the misdiagnosis. In fact your graph shows actual polio cases have dropped as expected.

As for Acute Flaccid Paralysis, this is not a single disease but a general grouping together of many viral and bacterial conditions that result in acute paralysis.

As more and more diseases are lumped together under the AFP banner, it is hardly surprising the number of reported cases continues to rise.

But as you point out, the fact that there was no equivalent rise in infant paralysis in the UK shows that the vast majority of cases in this country were the result of polio infection and the vaccination program has been a resounding success.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Chad wrote:
You cannot blame polio vaccine for the misdiagnosis.

I am not. I am saying that on the introduction of the vaccine, more stringent testing (in stools) led to decline in recorded polio cases, and a rise in Non Polio Acute Flaccid Paralysis cases.
Chad wrote:

In fact your graph shows actual polio cases have dropped as expected.

Quite.
Chad wrote:
As for Acute Flaccid Paralysis, this is not a single disease but a general grouping together of many viral and bacterial conditions that result in acute paralysis.

Yes and some of these diseases were previously thought to be the result of polio paralysis, before the more stringent testing insisting that only cases where stools were infected would be used in the polio stats . These are the Non Polio Acute Flaccid Paralysis that the Indian doctor is referring to in the video. Now I know why he mentions it.
Chad wrote:
As more and more diseases are lumped together under the AFP banner, it is hardly surprising the number of reported cases continues to rise.

Nor for that matter that polio falls.
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Tilo Rebar


In: Sussex
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Chad wrote:
Tilo Rebar wrote: So I think this begs the question as to how much of the reduction in the incidence of polio was due to the 1950's mass vaccination programme and how much because of improvements in sanitation and personal hygiene, particularly amongst those working in the catering industry?

This part really made me chuckle.

The folk who were vulnerable to polio in England in the fifties had absolutely no interaction with any sort of catering industry that could possibly infect them to that sort of degree... Food was prepared and cooked in the home and any improvements in hygiene had to come from there to be effective...


What, you're 'avin a larf!

The 1944 Education Act made it an entitlement for pupils to receive a free school meal. This entitlement was scaled back in 1949 when a flat charge of 2.5 pence was introduced.

Over the next thirty years this fee was gradually increased, until in 1980, legislation was introduced to remove the requirement for Local Education Authorities to provide a meal for every pupil.

Interestingly I always thought the dinner ladies at my school were the angels of death - perhaps I was right.

Then there is the good old British Fish & Chip shop and the start of the huge growth of Chinese and Indian take-aways and eateries.

Plenty of potential chances to catch polio and other nasty orally admitted diseases, unless their food hygene standards were good.

Chad wrote:
So if this dramatic decline is down to hygiene alone, then the entire planetary human population must now have infinitely better personal hygiene habits than the English had in the 1950s.


Nowhere did I say it was down to "hygiene alone", only that we need to consider how much the reduction of the incidence of polio was due to the vaccination programme and how much due to improvements in sanitation and personal hygiene, particularly amongst those working in the catering industry.

Let's not get carried away by the PR machine of vested interest, and instead take a balanced approach to the facts. If we don't do this, then before you know it compulsory vaccination will be floated as an idea again by our 'Big Brother' want-to-be government. Personal freedom is important.
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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Don't get carried away, Tilo. Vaccination is not part of 'Big Brother' government and in this context personal freedom is not particularly important since all individuals would prefer their children not to get polio if vaccination would achieve this goal. Otherwise you are both putting up a spirited case. Perhaps in a losing cause but still...
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Chad


In: Ramsbottom
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Tilo, you can take it from me (who had to suffer school dinners in the 50s) that any polio virus was boiled to death long before it had the chance to reach the dinner plate!

But joking aside, can you provide details of this organised campaign to improve food hygiene in the 50's, or did our dinner ladies spontaneously clean up their acts, outside the gaze of... well me at least?

As I said, I don't remember any such campaign, but I do remember the vaccination campaign. We have evidence of this campaign and data showing how its introduction correlates with the reduction in polio cases.

If you can produce data to show when the food hygiene improvements were first introduced into our schools and demonstrate how that correlates with the polio reduction I will start to take your argument more seriously.

By the way, this step change in food hygiene practices must have had the extra benefit of drastically reducing the number of food poisoning cases. And the graph should match the polio graph pretty damned closely.

I look forward to scrutinizing the evidence.
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