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COIN (NEW CONCEPTS)
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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I know you folks are getting bored, with me drifting off thread.

But is there a connection with the heroic act of transporting and erecting a large stone from a foreign isle/area.

Just putting down a (land) marker for the outlines of a trading area.

No answers required.
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Wile E. Coyote


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THE CANTERBURY CONUNDRUM

I have recently been taking a look at the so called Liudhard medalet from the so called Canterbury hoard.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canterbury-St_Martin%27s_hoard

I am a skeptic on all things Anglo-Saxon, so don't need an excuse to start digging but you might want to take a look at the Luidhard, before going ahead, so you don't waste valuable time. Still I am guessing when you do, you haven't seen too many coins or medals like this one, Anglo Saxon or otherwise.

OK I only have a replica picture. Still.....is it me? or does he really have no neck?? Weird.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liudhard_medalet#/media/File:Liudhardmedaletreplica.jpg

Let's open a trench.


wiki wrote:
The Liudhard medalet is a gold Anglo-Saxon coin or small medal found some time before 1844 near St Martin's Church in Canterbury, England. It was part of the Canterbury-St Martin's hoard of six items. The coin, along with other items found with it, now resides in the World Museum Liverpool. Although some scholarly debate exists on whether or not all the items in the hoard were from the same grave, most historians who have studied the object conclude that they were buried together as a necklace in a 6th-century woman's grave. The coin is set in a mount so that it could be worn as jewellery, and has an inscription on the obverse or front surrounding a robed figure. The inscription refers to Liudhard, a bishop who accompanied Bertha to England when she married Æthelberht the king of Kent. The reverse side of the coin has a double-barred cross, or patriarchal cross, with more lettering.

The coin was probably struck at Canterbury in the late 6th century, most likely between 578 and 589. Although it could have been used as a coin, it was more likely made as a medallion to proclaim the wearer's conversion to Christianity. The coin is the oldest surviving example of Anglo-Saxon coinage. The design of the figured side has some affinities with Merovingian and Visigothic coins, but the side with the cross has few known predecessors in coinage, and is the first northern European depiction of a patriarchal cross in any medium.


Eh. That doesn't sound convincing.....

The coin is the oldest surviving example of Anglo-Saxon coinage.


Really? Let's take a look.

I normally start with provenance. Th first mention of part of the so called Canterbury hoard appears to be on 25 April 1844, when Charles Roach Smith brought to the notice of the Numismatic society ....just three gold coins, mounted with loops to serve as ornaments, apparently they had been found found in the churchyard of St. Martin's, Canterbury after being in the possession of an eminent local antiquarian Mr. W. H. Rolfe (who it appears lives in Sandwich Canterbury close to the find) these coins/medalets were later exhibited at a meeting of the British Archaeological Association at Canterbury on 13 September 1844....

So there were only three coins/medals to start with, that is less than half the current hoard, found allegedly in the ancient churchyard. However shortly afterwards Mr Rolfe happens to acquire a further 3 coins/medals and 2 further items a Roman intaglio set in gold and a circular brooch. It is these items that together make up the so called Canterbury hoard.

Its getting complicated so what have we really got? There is now the 3 coins whose details were first published in 1844; and the remaining 5 items added in 1845. All we have is the word of Roach Smith, presumably based on that of WH Rolfe that the 1845 set were found with the others, yet from this we are asked to conclude that these items were most probably from a woman's necklace from a single grave. Unfortunately Wiley skeptically concludes we dont really know where any one of the items was actually found, when they were actually found, of if they were actually found together. The items all appear distinct, and WH Rolfe appears to have acquired them as two lots at separate times, but without disclosing the real provenance.

Here is a summary of the so called hoard

(1) A tremissis, of Italian fabric, of the Emperor Justin II (565-78).
(2) A "medalet " of Bishop Liudhard.
(3) A gold imitation of a fourth-century bronze coin of the twosoldiers-and-standard reverse type.
(4) A solidus with a facing bust and the legend +1VESIO V1CO.
(5) A Merovingian tremissis struck at St. Bertrand-de-Comminges.
(6) A Merovingian tremissis struck at Agen.
(7) A Roman intaglio set in gold.
(8) A circular brooch.
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Mick Harper
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Before entering into the nitty-gritty, two general points.
1. AE accepts hoards as true evidence on the grounds that forgers don't mass produce. This is clearly not a hoard no matter how often they tell one another it is.
2. "The coin is the oldest surviving example of Anglo-Saxon coinage" is subject to the AE 'all world records are to be presumed bogus' rule..
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Queens Bishop

I must confess to never having heard of Bishop Liudhard.

wiki wrote:
Liudhard (Old English: Lēodheard; modern French: Létard, also Letard in English) was a Frankish bishop – of where is unclear – and the chaplain of Queen Bertha of Kent, whom she brought with her from the continent upon her marriage to King Æthelberht of Kent. A short ways east of Canterbury he helped found and dedicate to Saint Martin of Tours the first Christian Saxon church in England, St Martin's, still serving as the oldest church in the English-speaking world.

He is believed to have died in the late 590s, soon after the arrival of Saint Augustine with the Gregorian mission, but Bede fails to mention him in any detail. He was originally buried in St Martin's Church, but Archbishop Laurence of Canterbury had his remains removed and buried in the Abbey Church of St Peter and St Paul in the early 7th century. He was regarded locally as a saint, and Goscelin recounts the story of a miracle he performed to help the eleventh-century artist and abbot Spearhafoc, who in thanks adorned his tomb, with "statues of enormous size and beauty" of the saint and Bertha.

According to Goscelin, while Spearhafoc was working on metal figures at St Augustine's Abbey in Canterbury, he lost a valuable ring given him by Edward's queen, and Godwin's daughter, Edith of Wessex, presumably as materials to use in his project.[1] In his distress, he prayed to Liudhard, after which the ring was found. In gratitude, he adorned Liudhard's tomb with the statues. From other mentions it would seem such a description would mean the statues were at least approaching life-size.[2] Also according to Goscelin and William of Malmesbury, Liudhard "was especially good at speedily responding to appeals for rain", for which purpose his remains would be carried in procession to the fields.[3]

A coin or "medalet", known as the Liudhard medalet, bearing his name was found in the 19th century in a grave in Canterbury, and is the earliest Anglo-Saxon coin, though it may not have been used as money in the normal way. The design is clearly based on contemporary Continental coins, but has unusual features.[4]



So it's a non-existent biography. We don't know where he came from, when he was born or died. However rather miraculously we have his image on a coin/medal reputedly from a grave in the very church he helped found, which also happens to be the first Anglo Saxon church in England.

It's a shame the find wasn't formally recorded as that would appear to make it the oldest Saxon coin (medalet) in the oldest Saxon church, not with the head of an Anglo-Saxon King or Queen, but with the very Bishop who is the Church's founder..... All.... of this happens just at or just before St Augustine steps foot on this fair isle.......

Quite some find.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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St Martins Church

I am starting to wonder if Mick might have a point about records.

The Church of St Martin in Canterbury, England, situated slightly beyond the city centre, is the first church founded in England, the oldest parish church in continuous use and the oldest church in the entire English-speaking world.

The architecture contains some features which are attributable to late Roman or, ahem, Saxon. The tower is (err) 14th century. The exterior is built of bands of flint, Roman brick and rubble. The argument for Saxon is the history (the coins) and that the 7th chancel was altered in the 14th century.

Local finds prove that Christianity did exist in this area of the city at the time, and the church contains many reused Roman bricks or spolia, as well as complete sections of walls of Roman tiles. At the core of the church the brick remains of a Roman tomb were integrated into the structure.[3] Several sections of walls are clearly very early, and it is possible that a blocked square-headed doorway in the chancel was the entrance to Bertha's church, while other sections of wall come from the period after the Gregorian mission in the 7th or 8th centuries, including most of the nave. The apse that was originally at the east end has been removed.[4] The tower is much later, in Perpendicular style


Perpendicular is Gothic hence late 13th/14th century. Notice the somewhat hopeful......

Several sections of walls are clearly very early, and it is possible that a blocked square-headed doorway in the chancel was the entrance to Bertha's church


Cripes, this could be the very place that St Augustine, with King Aethelberht's permission, went, according to Bede "to meet, to sing, to pray, to say mass, to preach, and to baptise'.
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Mick Harper
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First thoughts

OK I only have a replica picture. Still.....is it me? or does he really have no neck?? Weird.

Not so much the lack of the neck as the blank patch where the neck should be. However there does seem to be an adam's apple which would rule out a man superimposed on a woman's torso. Ever wondered why gold is so beloved of forgers, Wiley? No, not because of value but because it doesn't tarnish, so sophisticated signs of ageing don't have to be employed.

The coin, along with other items found with it, now resides in the World Museum Liverpool.

When an important piece from one part of the country ends up in an obscure museum at the other end of the country, time to look for 'connections'.

Although some scholarly debate exists on whether or not all the items in the hoard were from the same grave

A real give-away. On what basis do the others think they were? We are in the world of 'make it fit because we'd love it to fit'. If these things were kosher there would be no dissenters. Though no dissenters does not necessarily mean kosher.
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Mick Harper
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.... a bishop who accompanied Bertha to England when she married Æthelberht the king of Kent.

We have quite a lot to say about Athers in our book so I will confine myself to side issues. Bertha is a Frank, Athelberht is an Anglo-Saxon. Two tribes who go to war but otherwise ostensibly belonging to quite different parts of mittelEuropa. Adding an –a to a male name denotes the female name. So it’s when Bert met Berta. Is the coincidence of name a sign of a lack of philological expertise in medieval times when the account was invented or is it just a happy nuptial coincidence?

The coin was probably struck at Canterbury in the late 6th century, most likely between 578 and 589. Although it could have been used as a coin, it was more likely made as a medallion to proclaim the wearer's conversion to Christianity.

Well, officially, Kent was pagan until Augustine’s arrival in 597 so somebody must have been coining highly heretical images right in the capital. Cheeky!.

The coin is the oldest surviving example of Anglo-Saxon coinage.

Ain’t they always.

The design...is the first northern European depiction of a patriarchal cross in any medium.

Ain’t they always.
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Wile E. Coyote


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Queens Bishop 2

Although Roach Smith was the first to draw attention to the hoard he in fact did not attribute the Bishop Luidhard coin to Bishop Luidhard at all . He in fact read the inscription as +EVPAR.DVS and attributed the coin to a Bishop Eupard of the diocease of Autun.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Diocese_of_Autun#Early_Bishops

Apparently the French are clinging onto this ridiculous notion.....that is, this artefact might be one of theirs.

The later interpretation LEVDARDVS came about apparently during the 1940s or 1950s and is based on the location of the find and of course the history. The new interpretation is based also on the so called "improved reading" which non-experts (like the French) might struggle with. Apparently the artist was accustomed to forming runic letters, and so produced a sort of hybrid Latin/runic inscription.

It's a good job we have experts to work this out. You might want to take another look just to check.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liudhard_medalet#/media/File:Liudhardmedaletreplica.jpg

If you stare at it long enough you will be convinced or maybe like Wiley need a couple of aspirin as they still look like a couple of runic characters to me.
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Mick Harper
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A short ways east of Canterbury he helped found and dedicate to Saint Martin of Tours

St Martin is one of our famous 'megalithic' saints. Tours is a key centre on the main Compostella pilgrimage route. Ooh, Canterbury is on the main pilgrimage route in England. Fancy!

the first Christian Saxon church in England,

Another world record

St Martin's, still serving as the oldest church in the English-speaking world.

And another.

He is believed to have died in the late 590s, soon after the arrival of Saint Augustine with the Gregorian mission, but Bede fails to mention him in any detail. He was originally buried in St Martin's Church, but Archbishop Laurence of Canterbury had his remains removed and buried in the Abbey Church of St Peter and St Paul in the early 7th century. He was regarded locally as a saint, and Goscelin recounts the story of a miracle he performed to help the eleventh-century artist and abbot Spearhafoc, who in thanks adorned his tomb, with "statues of enormous size and beauty" of the saint and Bertha.

Translation: the whole thing was invented in the twelfth century to boost the pilgrimage trade in Canterbury. They didn’t have Thomas Becket yet!

According to Goscelin, while Spearhafoc was working on metal figures at St Augustine's Abbey in Canterbury, he lost a valuable ring given him by Edward's queen, and Godwin's daughter, Edith of Wessex, presumably as materials to use in his project.[1] In his distress, he prayed to Liudhard, after which the ring was found. In gratitude, he adorned Liudhard's tomb with the statues. From other mentions it would seem such a description would mean the statues were at least approaching life-size.[2] Also according to Goscelin and William of Malmesbury, Liudhard "was especially good at speedily responding to appeals for rain", for which purpose his remains would be carried in procession to the fields.[3]

This is all standard faux pilgrimage lore.

A coin or "medalet", known as the Liudhard medalet, bearing his name was found in the 19th century in a grave in Canterbury, and is the earliest Anglo-Saxon coin, though it may not have been used as money in the normal way. The design is clearly based on contemporary Continental coins, but has unusual features.[4]

So standard that even a nineteenth century forger put it to good use.

So it's a non existent biography. We don't know where he came from, when he was born or died. However rather miraculously we have his image on a coin/medal reputedly from a grave in the very church he helped found, which also happens to be the first Anglo Saxon church in England.

It's a shame the find wasn't formally recorded as that would appear to make it the oldest Saxon coin,(medalet) in the oldest Saxon church, not with the head of a Anglo Saxon King or Queen, but with the very Bishop who is the Church's founder..... All.... of this happens just at or just before St Augustine steps foot on this fair isle.......

Quite some find.

I wholly concur. Just the two of us, Wiley, in a see of experts.
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Wile E. Coyote


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Mirror Mirror

If like me you are wondering why the characters appear in reverse. Then orthodoxy has a cunning explanation.

Remember that Anglo Saxon coinage is in its infancy. Put yourself in the shoes of the poor goldsmith charged with the important task of commemorating Bishop Luidhard (and indirectly Queen Bertha). He has to come up with something rather good.......no?

Not having any indigenous models to base his design on (no coinage since the Romans who abandoned C 4th) he selects a foreign example to copy the text and images.

Meticulously he copies the characters and pours them into the mould....... being an illiterate pagan he doesn't realise his mistake. Most probably Queen Bertha and the good Bishop...being good Christians and wanting to show forgiveness were polite enough not to point this out....

This is either yet more proof of the coin's authenticity... "it offers a fascinating glimpse of the problems faced by an illiterate AS goldsmith as he comes into contact .....with the literate civilising world...in the Dark Ages......"

Or

Evidence it is a copy
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Mick Harper
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I buy your contempt for the orthodox excuse -- even by the standards of academic chat this is bizarre -- but wouldn't a forger just make a copy of the copy to make it right way round? Show your working, as they used to say about my homework. Right after, "Harper minor, why are you handing this in after the dog has eaten it?" Luckily, I was home-schooled.
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Wile E. Coyote


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Mick Harper wrote:
I buy your contempt for the orthodox excuse -- even by the standards of academic chat this is bizarre -- but wouldn't a forger just make a copy of the copy to make it right way round? Show your working, as they used to say about my homework. Right after, "Harper minor, why are you handing this in after the dog has eaten it?" Luckily, I was home-schooled.


In general terms coin is really about showing how Orthodoxy convinces itself what is speculation (a linked series of reasonable inferences which individually sound OK.... but as a chain become increasingly ridiculous) is truth.

I thought it might be fun to start this thread off by flipping the evidence (proof/refutation) as you would flip a coin. But nobody liked it. (except me).

What folks make of it all is really down to them, it was not designed to make folks skeptical or reveal forgeries....though that might be the outcome.... it's more about creating space for new ideas... clearly as a method it's not popular......but I am too old to change.
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Wile E. Coyote


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Today, in a crude attempt to upstage Auro and boost Wiley's page views..... we look at Dragons.

http://www.coinsweekly.com/en/Archive/Unique-dragon-coin-from-Kent/8?&id=411&type=a

A recent find features a coin (from about the time of christ) with a representation of not just one Dragon ......(dramatic pause)....... but two dragons divided by seven sea serpents (match that Auro) .....from that mysterious region we now know as Kent.

Anyway it was struck by the even more mysterious ruler of the Cantia, a certain King Vodenos (Looks like Woden leader of the Wild hunt to Wiley) Anyway it's another example of a coin maker who was illiterate........ this keeps on coming up whenever there is an anomaly.

Much later........ coins would feature St George killing a dragon....

https://www.chards.co.uk/blog/st-george-on-coins/63

For those of you that doubt the existence (on taking a close look at these coins) of the Dragons, let alone the Serpents, Wiley can confirm that symbols tend to provide a means for people to look for graphical representations of...... what they already believe.......
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Ken Cheng wrote:

"I'm not a fan of the new pound coin, but then again, I hate all change."
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N R Scott


In: Middlesbrough
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Just a heads up. We might be on the verge of the big Bitcoin crash.

This video explains it all in a fairly decent way for anyone interested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpvmRJZDfoE&t=1s

(You may remember the Australian guy narrating the video as the guy from the Cavendish Experiment video I shared a good while back.)
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