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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| Wile E. Coyote wrote: | | Date the coins to the AE date of the tapestry. |
The 2,582 coins were detected in a field in the Chew Valley in Somerset. The trainee detectorist picked up the signal in his first lesson. How the coins remained undiscovered for a millennium, in an agricultural area that's also of biological/scientific interest, isn't clear. In the event the hoard didn't take long to dig up
| The group went on to dig up the remainder from shallow ground over the course of around five hours |
But the mystery is why 'French officials' would use Old English coinage
| The hoard is the largest Norman treasure find since 1833, and features examples of how French-speaking officials had struggled to get a grip on Old English, which is imperfectly stamped onto some of the silver coins. |
It doesn't strike the British Museum's Keeper of Medieval Coins, Gareth Williams, as odd
| "The coins help us understand how changes under Norman rule impacted on society as a whole." |
Gareth appears to be saying that it's normal for Normans to use obsolete coins. Why? To assist 'tax evasion' seems pretty rum.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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"Thank you, Garth the Villein, that will be all until next Michaelmas. Place the capon in the box provided on your way out. No, wait, come back here, why have you clumsily stamped a new head on an old coin?"
"Not me, guv, I found it in me change. I was a bit worried but the wife said two heads are better than one. Mind you, she's a soppy old baggage. Did I do wrong?"
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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The more obvious explanation is that the new Norman administration did not call in the old coinage but stamped William's head over Edward's/Harold's. Though I am surprised to hear there are any of Harold since he couldn't have struck many in the less than a year of his reign. This is not only typical Norman efficiency in the economic sphere, it also rather dramatically demonstrated to everyone who was now on top.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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Many of the Harold coins have the inscription "pax" on, he clearly wanted to show he could combine irony with propaganda.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Stamping coins with William's head over his predecessor's may be surprising if politically sound, but replacing Mohammed with the legend “Moses is the Messenger of God†on Khazar coins seems completely bizarre (5 such coins, dated 837/8)
| The Khazar coins were invariably imitations of Islamic dirhams. However, they included, in some instances, the inscription ard al-hazar (“Land of the Khazarsâ€), Turkic tamgas and some dirhams with the most striking formula (for imitation Islamic coins): Musa rasul Allah “Moses is the Messenger of God,†a clear substitution for the Islamic Muhammad rasul Allah. The five “Moses dirhams†uncovered thus far have been dated to 837/838 on the basis of die-chains. |
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/btn_Coins/Mukhamadiev/MukhamadievKhazarCoinsEn.htm
The inscription on the pictured coin includes both the phrase “Muhammad rasul Allah†at the top and “Musa rasul Allah†at the bottom instead of superimposing or choosing one over the other. Archaeologists must have been very pleased to discover what they describe as Khazar coins in the continued absence of any recognisably 'Khazar' archaeology
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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It turns out that correctly analysing and cataloguing coins from a large hoard is far from straightforward. The endemic constraints for archaeologists of time and money also bedevil numismatists faced with, say, a thousand coins. But with coins, it appears there's another problem, namely 'accuracy of data'
...we must keep in mind that in several cases (a not-insignificant number) the study of a large monetary find cannot start from the direct observation of the coins, but is only based on previous studies, where similar errors may have profoundly affected the reliability of the data that we now want to re-examine.
Marguerite Spoerri has pointed out how the texts that in the past have presented the coins of this hoard do not propose an exact correspondence between the description of the specimens and their reference to the volumes of the Description historique des monnaies frappees sous l’Empire Romain by Henry Cohen. There is therefore a great difficulty, if not a clear impossibility, in reconstructing the exact contents of the hoard, and consequently in using this data effectively to carry out a more in-depth study |
They have more data, and confidence, regarding Greek and Roman coins than medieval and later coins, which is quite surprising. The reasons given are a) the variety of coins and b) the need for specific knowledge of a period... so that covers all bases!
The classification of coins may be more complex due to the greater fragmentation of the monetary context, which translates into a wider heterogeneity of the coins usually present in the hoard. This may require the involvement of very specific skills, often difficult to find, especially concentrated in one single person.
In several cases we are also forced to confront a very unsatisfactory bibliography, obsolete or of poor quality, where primary issues such as the determination of the mint of a coin, its dating, when not its very name, cannot be unequivocally clarified |
Primary issues, indeed. It makes one wonder if the dating of coin finds from sites without a reliable context, e.g. Sutton Hoo's 'Frankish' coins, can be trusted.
For all their expertise, it doesn't look like numismatists are about to correct inaccuracies, past or present, any time soon
| Such a scenario may seem bleak and lead us to the conclusion that a complete and scrupulous study of a big hoard, as well as a large set of finds, cannot be considered anything but a chimera: unworkable because of the effort and the prohibitive costs, when not for the difficulty in finding the right skills that such an operation could require. | |
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| Hatty wrote: | | Stamping coins with William's head over his predecessor's may be surprising if politically sound, |
This is one of the big ortho errors.... they impose a ortho history, and chronology on coin finds and then the images on the coin become seen as political propaganda of King William etc.
Coins need to be accepted across trade networks.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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Of course if you accept ortho propaganda is a reasonable inference.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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So according to ortho there are three English coin types that bear the legend pax, (or variants of), they occur in the eleventh century during the reigns of Edward, Harold and William.
Pax is the Roman Goddess of peace.
All three protagonists feature in the story of the Battle of Hastings, arguably the most most famous date in British History.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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To those that believe all ancient coins are fakes, planted and dug up by their forgers.
Here is a case, if the above were true, where the cunning plan did not work out quite as intended.
https://bit.ly/35AeIEf
The metal detectorists actually got longer sentences than the high fiving Italian rapists.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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And just as scandalous. If this pair of muppets had gone the legal route they would still have made millions plus got interviewed on the telly and all sorts. But they have received sentences more appropriate to people acquiring the gear by holding up a bank rather than omitting to fill in the requisite forms.
But obviously we are more interested in the forgery side. I took it all to be genuine simply on the grounds that a) there was so much of it and b) they were a pair of muppets. We need more, Wiley.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Their crime is stealing/looting. If they'd been accused of forgery their sentence would presumably have been lighter.
Assuming the coins are missing, how does anyone know whether they are 'Anglo-Saxon''? Still, thirty-one coins from the hoard of 300 have been recovered
| They included two rare “Two Emperorsâ€, believed to depict King Alfred the Great of Wessex and Ceolwulf II of Mercia, revealing a previously unknown pact between the pair. |
Another example of a pair of anomalous coins.
According to the experts, the coins are A-S but hidden by a Viking. If there was a 'hitherto unsuspected alliance' going on, why the need to hide the money?
| Experts say the coins, which are Saxon and believed to have been hidden by a Viking, provide fresh information about the unification of England and show there was an alliance previously not thought to exist between the kings of Mercia and Wessex. | |
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| They included two rare “Two Emperorsâ€, believed to depict King Alfred the Great of Wessex and Ceolwulf II of Mercia, revealing a previously unknown pact between the pair. |
Rather mysteriously, when a hoard of coins of King Harold and William (some are mules), are found together, with the Legend Pax on the Harold's it does not reveal "an unknown pact between the pair."
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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A very perceptive observation. It's our old friend 'academic chat'. Nobody knows the significance of two heads, not even whether they are genuine coins of the period, but that just means academics are able to say it means one thing (when that is their theory) or the opposite thing (when that is their theory). Two-faced is better than no-face.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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I got news of this from a Scandi-mate. It looks exactly the sort of serious but non-academic journal that should be of interest to us. Anybody familiar with it?
-------------------
The March 2020 issue of Treasure Hunting magazine
is in the shops today!
Contents include:
News and Views This month's news and stories from the world of metal detecting include some particularly wonderful finds from Shropshire and fascinating tales of research.
Reader Finds A showcase of some of our readers' recent finds.
XP ORX Secrets Revealed Gary Blackwell gives some hints and tips on to get the most out of the XP ORX.
Coinage in Anglo-Saxon England: Offa and the Rise of Mercia – Part 1 Richard Kelleher looks at the importance and variety of the coinage of King Offa in the 8th century.
Detecting on the Glorious Isle Julian Whittaker shares some of the numerous finds made over recent years on the Isle of Wight.
The Tale of Three Meadows David Stuckey presents some of the many coins found by his friend Terry in Hertfordshire.
Friends of Corfe Rally 2019 Malcolm Potter reviews this great charity event and presents some of the finds made.
My Final Favourite Finds In the final instalment of the series, Roman talks through his favourite and most interesting finds from Suffolk.
Hurricane Hits Essex Read Julian Evan-Hart's account of unearthing the of a WWII aircraft from an Essex field.
Identifying and Dating Pottery – Part 2: The Prehistoric Period Richard Hemery's series continues with a look at how to identify pottery dating back to 4000 BC.
Auction Round-Up A selection of items sold at TimeLine's recent auction.
Club Round-Up Some of the best items on the finds tables around the country this month.
And lots, lots more......
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