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COIN (NEW CONCEPTS)
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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Yes, all thoroughly good grist. I've often wondered what goes on in barter economies. To us it seems almost impossibly difficult making the simplest transaction but presumably over several thousand years -- and with a supranational authority like Megalithica Inc holding the reins -- some quite sophisticated procedures can get established.

Who remembers the claim (made somewhere concerning that Trojan War in East Anglia bloke) that fifty thousand copper objects have been found somewhere or other?
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Tilo Rebar wrote:
Regarding tolls, perhaps money not needed. Based on our current practice of buying tickets to travel, perhaps our neolithic traveller had to trade some of his cargo for a ticket before he could use the drove ways.


Excellent.

Are you claiming your (tick)ets later developed into money (tok)ens?
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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Let us remember this is a pre-literate economy. And pre-paper.
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Tilo Rebar


In: Sussex
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Wile E. Coyote wrote:
...Are you claiming your (tick)ets later developed into money (tok)ens?


Not thought about that, but perhaps tokens = (toll)kens.

Probably need banks before a money system could work, as I believe the earliest currency was based on a promise to pay the bearer back in gold / silver / (bronze?) when the coins or whatever were presented for exchange like this...



Of course, it was never expected that large numbers of people would want the real metal back, so the reserves set aside to honour the promise got slowly reduced to zero, and eventually fiat money came into being which had no value other than as a debt upon the government of the issuing country.

Modern finance was born.
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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Komorikid wrote:
No greater concentration of bronze artefacts has been found to surpass the more than 100,000 items found on the Fenlands flood plain.

The most concentrated finds are between Fleam Dyke and Littleport; 6500 bronze artefacts from Isleham alone.

Isleham is next door to Mildenhall on The Ridgeway/Icknield Way, close to Brandon and Grime's Graves flint mines.

Fleam Dyke is, well you all know by now.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Numismatics......

See below.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Numismatics......

Mick Harper wrote:
Let us remember this is a pre-literate economy. And pre-paper.

I used money "token", to signify money that was not...... precious.

Ancient money like modern money was not....in the main precious.. The Athenians and Roman elites used silver and gold amomgst only those elites, to trade, and orthodox history and Numismatics simply follows that lead.

Numismatic starts with the Philip of Macedon stater. Everything is arranged from this starting point.

The idea that even everyday Roman or Greek folk were using gold or silver is simply barking. It didn't happen.

Everyday folk used tokens. Token money. As you say it was not paper.....but it was money.

On line Etymology wrote:


Take........

late Old English tacan, from a Scandinavian source (e.g. Old Norse taka "take, grasp, lay hold," past tense tok, past participle tekinn; Swedish ta, past participle tagit), from Proto-Germanic *tækanan (cf. Middle Low German tacken, Middle Dutch taken, Gothic tekan "to touch"), of uncertain origin, perhaps originally meaning "to touch."

Gradually replaced Middle English nimen as the verb for "to take," from Old English niman, from the usual West Germanic *nem- root (cf. German nehmen, Dutch nemen; see nimble).


Tokens are related to.... numbers.

Money is related not to literacy but to numbers

In Roman times, Nummus meant "Coin" or "Money piece" ...

Numismatics......
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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Any connection with nemeton do you think? 'Sacred groves' that were given a special status could be the equivalent of mint towns.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Hatty wrote:
Any connection with nemeton do you think? 'Sacred groves' that were given a special status could be the equivalent of mint towns.


As I am attempting a broad revisionist overview.

I won't mention tin...ton...towns.

So. No, I don't.

Good attempt to make me rush over the cliff edge though....

Commendable effort.

Keep it up. Won't be long now.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Numa


When Vespasian showed his coin to Titus, he would have known about the founding Kings.

After Romulus mysteriously disappeared in a thunderstorm, the great and the good looked for a worthy successor who would be able to unify the Romans with the Sabines.

They hit upon old Numa Pompilius, who didn't actually live in Rome, but had been born on the exact day Rome was founded..

Old Numa reformed the calendar...In Romulus' time, the calendar had been fixed at 304 days. It didn't work for long because it didn't align with the seasons. Numa reformed the calendar around 700 BCE by adding the months of January (Ianuarius) and February (Februarius) to the original 10 months, which increased the year's length to 354 or 355 days, a lunar year By adding a leap month of 22 days every other year, he then had a type of solar lunar calendar.

Numa certainly knew his numbers.
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Tilo Rebar


In: Sussex
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I like your idea, Wile, that the first tokens represented the item being purchased.

Perhaps one of these...



...represented, say 10 boar.

While one of these beauties...



...represented 10 bronze battle axes.


So perhaps different tokens used for whatever you wanted to buy?

The gold axe head ingots were found near ancient mines at Alderley Edge. Some interesting stuff about them here...

http://www.alderley.org.uk/Aldtre.html
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Tilo Rebar wrote:

Perhaps one of these...



...represented, say 10 boar.



The first image looks like it might be early Republican coinage. These branded bars often have pictures of cattle, sheep, even elephants on them.

The mark could signify denomination so a cattle bar might equal 1 cow, a elephant bar might represent 20 cows etc.

But the brand could signify quality of the metal, or could signify a mint, or it could signify the guarantor of the currency.

So at this stage I am only considering options.

Rather helpfully you are adding some new interesting ideas in.

Branding, to my way of thinking, must have been very important in Megalithia, could the trading and branding of cattle, to show ownership, extend to the branding of bars?

Some folks think it's a possibility.

I am certainly keeping it in mind.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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STATER

ancient coin, late 14c., from Greek stater, from histanai "to fix, to place in a balance," hence "to weigh;" literally "to cause to stand"


The ancient classical man of standing had staters

(STA a fundamental linguistic route ...Stars...Fortune.)

For the Romans a stater meant not just weight but "to place in a balance" or scales

Where a currency contains precious metal then scales become important as that currency has two values.

A money value and a commodity value.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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In for a Penny, in for a Pound

One of the first ideas I had when Mick started Tin exporting was that Tin working would be revealed in the place naming.

wiki wrote:


The phrase Tre, Pol and Pen is used to describe people from or places in Cornwall, UK. The full rhyming couplet runs: By Tre, Pol and Pen shall ye know all Cornishmen,[1][2] a version of which was recorded by Richard Carew in his Survey of Cornwall, published in 1602.[3] Many Cornish surnames and place names still retain these words as prefixes, such as the name Trelawny and the town of Polperro. Tre in the Cornish language means a settlement or homestead; Pol, a pond, lake or well; and Pen, a hill or headland. Cornish surnames and placenames are generally pronounced with the emphasis on the second syllable.[4]


Mentally I started with

Tre was three as in the three hares

Pol was pool, and this went with smelting, and linked in to the Excalibur sword myth, which was linked to the area

Pen was animal pen aka what orthodoxy has for hillfort

However, after a while I started to think that Pen might be "pan"... areas where panning for metal took place.
online Etymology wrote:
Penny.....Old English pening, penig, Northumbrian penning "penny," from Proto-Germanic *panninggaz (cf. Old Norse penningr, Swedish pänning, Danish penge, Old Frisian panning, Old Saxon pending, Middle Dutch pennic, Dutch penning, Old High German pfenning, German Pfennig, not recorded in Gothic, where skatts is used instead), of unknown origin.


A penny is a small panned nugget of low value. Whereas a pound (note similarities to pond and panned again) was a heavy nugget. A schilling, was a skilling or shaped nugget....


online Etymology wrote:
Pan....
"to wash gravel or sand in a pan in search of gold," 1839, from pan (n.); thus to pan out "turn out, succeed" (1868) is a figurative use of this (literal sense from 1849). The meaning "criticize severely"
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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BRILLIANT

Best contribution you have ever made to the site. I am convinced you've made a contribution here too to the human race. I think you've got it.
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