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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| Ishmael wrote: | | Wile E. Coyote wrote: | | According to Livy, by 400 BC the only legal tender was Bronze and mining for precious metals was discouraged. |
No!
Livy doesn't give any dates. We don't know when this character "Livy" was writing. This is important. |
Cripes.... the next thing you will be telling me is that Vespasian never said 'Pecunia non olet'.........
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| Ishmael wrote: | | I am willing to state categorically that all roman coins are fake. They were dug up by their forgers. |
You now have done.
It's an interesting claim, you have thousands of nameless individuals, using metal detectors, making single worthless finds, going to all the trouble to forge one or two coins, then discover they are of little value.
Please can you explain why they would do this.
Perhaps it makes for an interesting topic of conversation at dinner parties?
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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Numismatics
| wiki wrote: |
is the study or collection of currency, including coins, tokens, paper money, and related objects. While numismatists are often characterized as students or collectors of coins, the discipline also includes the broader study of money and other payment media used to resolve debts and the exchange of goods. Early money used by people is referred to as "Odd and Curious", but the use of other goods in barter exchange is excluded, even where used as a circulating currency (e.g., cigarettes in prison). The Kyrgyz people used horses as the principal currency unit and gave small change in lambskins;[1] the lambskins may be suitable for numismatic study, but the horse is not. Many objects have been used for centuries, such as cowry shells, precious metals and gems. |
To be fair, I for one have no doubt about the unscientific current nature of numismatics, and much orthodox history, just as I fell off my computer chair and sprained my wrist, when one esteemed contributor provided me recently with a mini lecture on taxon......
Methinks folks will struggle, though, if they attempt to explain the numismatic "evidence" of the Romans, through mass forgeries.
Still......Best of Luck.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| I am willing to state categorically that all roman coins are fake. They were dug up by their forgers. |
I am mildly addicted to a truly absurd(ist?) telly programme called the Hoard Hunters. Basically every week these two complete bozos set out to find a hoard (a known hoard that was discovered with old technology which they hope to swell by applying new technology) and every week they end up not finding the hoard or any extension of it but they do generally find a few Roman coins worth "nothing" or "could be a tenner" or other non-startling epithets.
I had been convinced by their sheer bozo-ness into accepting their sincerity but now, thanks to Ishmael, I realise they are lying every week and merely salting their digs so that the telly programme at least has some kind of denouement. Where would we be without Ishmael conducting us everywhere by his stern hand?
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Wile E. Coyote wrote: | | Cripes.... the next thing you will be telling me is that Vespasian never said 'Pecunia non olet'......... |
In a book, that line is attributed to a character by that name. That character is supposed by the book's readers to have been historical and that he uttered the phrase while living is taken on faith. That's all we know.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Wile E. Coyote wrote: | | It's an interesting claim, you have thousands of nameless individuals, using metal detectors, making single worthless finds, going to all the trouble to forge one or two coins, then discover they are of little value. |
I dare you to research the actual circumstances under which the coins were found.
Once we looked into European cave art in this same way we discovered all of it is probably forged junk of no archaeological value. If every European cave painting is a forgery, why would coins prove any more reliable?
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| Ishmael wrote: | I dare you to research the actual circumstances under which the coins were found.
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I am up for this. I intend to throw a few bucks at a museum to get the names and addresses of a few wretched nerds, who had brought in their so called Roman "finds" for examination.
Sniffer and I will then "don" our night goggles....
Before you can say woof, an expose of hidden forges, in deepest Silkminster.
Someone has to stop this, before it gets out of hand.
What we need is zero tolerance. Let us not forget, small crimes lead to bigger ones. It aint gonna be long before these guys realise that these bronze Romans coins, in poor condition, are worthless, and start minting gold staters with Jesus on one side.....
If I had only got to grips with this earlier.....
Happy to help.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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We have our first breakthrough. I have been contacted by a source, whom I shall refer to henceforth as M (I have promised to protect his identity). M is part of a ring of individuals who have been faking finds for years. M has told me that the group is fronted by an individual he refers to as the T man.
The T man has connections with a major financial player and media outlet. Basically the group have been going round the countryside digging and dropping fake finds, including Roman coins, into semi-remote locations that they call Drop Zones.
At a much later date, with the use of so called technology (a glammed up lawn mower), they uncover these fakes from the Drop Zones, all the time pretending they are real. Most operations are conducted in broad daylight over a 3 day period. The public have been taken in.
M is now willing to talk as the group have fallen out, after the T man introduced a smouldering, South European temptress to the group, also called M (one of the major difficulties I now face is the use of initials).
Anyway M, the small, unkempt, grey, bespectacled, rotund one, who you wouldn't know if he was a doctor or a patient if you strayed into an asylum, mainly due to his appalling choice in knitware, has thoroughly grassed his mates up, all to get back at the totty.
I love this dirt.
It only goes to show how sexual jealously can undo any conspiracy.
Will keep you posted.
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Boreades
In: finity and beyond
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M = Mick?
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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To help you on your way....here is some early roman coinage.
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/publications/online_research_
catalogues/rrc/roman_republican_coins/roman_republican_coinage.aspx
We are looking for megalithic coinage, its not going to be of precious metal, and it is likely to have a cattle connection. You have all seen it.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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Currency Exchange Value
Exact values are difficult to state, if earlier coinage was thought of in terms of numbers of cows, then it might be the case that exact early values would be clearer, to buyers and sellers..
But by the time of the Emperors you had Roman coins made from gold, silver, brass and copper in circulation....
During Emperor Augustus' reign (31 B.C. until 14 A.D.) it is thought that one Aureus (8 grams of gold) was as valuable as 25 Denars (3.5 grams of silver each) or 100 Sesterces (brass coins) or 400 Asses (copper coins)..........
Where coins were made of precious metals, as peviously stated, they would have had two values, a intrinsic commodity value, and a money exchange value.
With rapid change of values of silver and gold, holders of currency could see the true value of their holding fluctuate wildly. Large holders or controllers of the supply of precious metals could take advantage of this by by manipulating the difference between intrinsic and exchange values.
Cows, Copper, Brass, Silver, Gold.
Yet the Great metal working Megalithic Empire was to trade in a currency of Salt bars.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Gresham's Law states that bad money always drives out good. One explanation (sorely needed!) for why there is so little evidence for Megalithic-era lack of metal 'coinage' (not necessartily coins) is that there is a constant, at least measured over millennia, tendency for exchange mediums that archaeologically survive (ie metals) to be driven out (ie used for manufacture) by things that don't survive ie blocks of salt.
But this general problem, of how the Ancients paid their tolls, gets more urgent as the evidence that tolling was an ancient way of life gets more copious. It may be that every time an archaeologist declares that he has found a bronze hand-axe we should be nodding sagely and saying, "Tha's another twenty copper toll gewgaws tha's been melted down."
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| Mick Harper wrote: |
But this general problem, of how the Ancients paid their tolls, gets more urgent as the evidence that tolling was an ancient way of life gets more copious. It may be that every time an archaeologist declares that he has found a bronze hand-axe we should be nodding sagely and saying, "Tha's another twenty copper toll gewgaws tha's been melted down." |
Exactly, in fact as always, you put it much, much better than me. But nodding sagely aint enough for Wiley....
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Tilo Rebar
In: Sussex
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | ...It may be that every time an archaeologist declares that he has found a bronze hand-axe we should be nodding sagely and saying, "Tha's another twenty copper toll gewgaws tha's been melted down." |
Yes, and not just the odd one or two, look at these...
Langton Matravers Hoard - 400+ bronze axe heads
Isle of Purbeck Hoard - 300+ heads
Detailed info here...
http://www.wessexarch.co.uk/book/export/html/170
This is why it's not good practice to use precious commodities as money, because the market price of the commodity used can fluctuate. If market has a rise, better to convert your coins to more valuable saleable object, while if market suffers a fall, time to get forging coins ASAP.
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Tilo Rebar
In: Sussex
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Regarding tolls, perhaps money not needed. Based on our current practice of buying tickets to travel, perhaps our neolithic traveller had to trade some of his cargo for a ticket before he could use the drove ways.
Megalithic Inc issues tickets to toll keeping hags, who sell them to travellers at a fixed price (e.g. one ticket for twenty journeys = one sheep). The Megalithic Inc Toll Boss goes round the hags on a regular basis to collect his due. Kills the sheep and gives the hag her cut in payment for her efforts - nice leg of mutton perhaps.
Then all that the toll hags have to do is mark each persons ticket at the start of a journey - repeat until ticket used up...
Lo and behold - by the miracle of time travel - here we see a picture of a hag holding up a used ticket...
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