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Way Out West (Pre-History)
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Jaq White



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Continuing with the Lugdunensis idea, the town of Luguvalium (Carlisle) was named after the God Loucetios meaning 'Bright' or 'Shining-One' and the name may be the original form of Lleu and Lugh, the popular Welsh & Irish Gods of Light.

Chrétien De Troyes knew Carlisle as Carduel and stated it was in Wales, presumably meaning the Welsh-speaking region of Britain. It was the site of one of King Arthur's many palaces spread around the country. It was at Carduel that Perceval (Peredyr) first arrived at King Arthur's Court and, from here, Yvain (Owein) set out on his grand adventure. Erec (or Gereint) also hoped to track Arthur down at either his court at Caduel or Robais.

Carlisle is similarly mentioned, via its modern name, by Sir Thomas Malory. Arthur received a Roman delegation there, and it was at Carlisle Castle that Medrod and Agravain discovered Lancelot and Gwenhwyfar in flagrante delicto. Lancelot escaped from the ensuing armed skirmish, but Gwenhwyfar remained to be sentenced to be burnt at the stake outside the city walls. Lancelot naturally returned to rescue her, but the resulting Wars enabled Medrod to seize the British throne and inevitably led to the fateful Battle of Camlann.

Early ballads concerning Gawain's unfortunate marriage to the "Loathly Lady" and his encounter with the spellbound giant "Carl of Carlisle" are also centred on the town and claim that:
King Arthur lives in merry Carlisle,
And seemly is to see;
And there with him Queen Guenever,
That bride so bright of blee.


Prof. Norma Lorre Goodrich in her detailed and imaginative study "King Arthur" uses many and varied arguments in an attempt to establish the High-King Arthur as a monarch entrenched in Northern Britain, particularly the Eastern Scottish border region. Leading on from this, she further suggests that Arthur's Camelot was the most recent Roman City to have been raised to the status of Tribal Capital: Luguvalium (Carlisle).

This appears to be based on the idea that the Caerleon of both Arthurian history and legend, was in fact merely a "City of the Legion" which should properly be identified with Carlisle. This is particularly indicated by Gildas' association of Saints Julius and Aaron with this latter city rather than, the more traditional, Caerleon. Added to this is a passage attached to some manuscripts of Nennius' Historia Brittonum which states that:

Arthur translated into Latin is "Terrible Bear" or "Iron Mallet," which destroyed the Molae Leonum

This latter phrase, Molae Leonum, is usually translated as "Lion's Teeth," presumably referring to the Saxon menace. Professor Goodrich, however, takes this to be Moles Llion which she translates as "Walls of the Waves". She suggests that this was an attempted translation of Caer-Ligualid, the British name for Carlisle, and that an alternative form would have been "Camelot" derived from Caer-Mallet or "Fort of the Hammerer," a name here recorded of Arthur.

Bede recorded how St. Cuthbert visited Queen Iurminburg of Northumbria at a nunnery in Caer-Ligualid (Carlisle) in AD 685. The urban community there was controlled by a praepositus civitas. St. Cuthbert noted the city's high stone walls and commented on a most remarkable fountain, indicating a functioning aqueduct existed at this date.

Carlisle Castle stands just to the North of the city on high ground on the site of a probable Roman fort, and possible Dark Age stronghold. Archaeological investigation has revealed that timber structures, possibly of the 5th century, replaced Roman stone buildings on the same alignment in Blackfrairs Street. These were later abandoned in favour of a large hall-like building which cut across them.

The Carduel identification of Carlisle appears to be quite sound, despite attempts to associate it with Caerleon. Carlisle was the Roman Luguvalium, later Caer-Ligualid before contracting to Carluel - no doubt the form from which Chrétien's Carduel was taken. Despite the confusion over which city was the home-town of the British proto-martyrs, there is no evidence to suppose that all records of Caerleon really refer to Carlisle; and the unfortunate late addition to Nennius is open to wide interpretation of which Professor Goodrich's is wholly unconvincing.

Caer-Ligualid (Carlisle) may well have become a major Dark Age City though, for it is closely associated with the historical 6th century King Urien of North Rheged. Both archaeology and historical records indicate a thriving Dark Age community, possibly within the walled area of the old fort. It is possible that the town became an early Bishopric which survived the Anglo-Saxon transition. There are strong indications that St. Patrick's family held positions in the Church nearby. Memories of these past glories may have led to medieval Arthurian associations
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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Going back to the link between Lyonesse and St Michael, there could be a connection between lion and dragon linguistically; aslan is Turkish for lion (as readers of C.S. Lewis's Narnia books are doubtless aware) and the Chinese word for dragon is lan or lung which distinctly resembles the English lion (leon in Greek). (Ancient Turkish was heavily influenced by Chinese, its most powerful neighbour; later on during the Ottoman Empire Turkish was comprised largely of Arabic, about 90%, closely followed by Farsi, Greek and French).
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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Lugh is the Celtic lord of every skill. He was patron of Lugodunum (Lyons) in Gaul

Lugodonum sounds pretty similar to London, more so than Lyons. I wonder if Louis (and Luigi, Lewis, etc. etc.) are related to Lugh.
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DPCrisp


In: Bedfordshire
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The multi-talented Lugh is associated with weapons... I wonder if Louis (and Luigi, Lewis, etc. etc.) are related to Lugh.

Louis is supposed to be a form of Ludwig: "famous warrior"!

Lugodonum sounds pretty similar to London, more so than Lyons.

There is a little dissension about Lygetun (Luton, Leyton, Leighton):

One of [Luton's] earliest names, Lygetun, means 'the enclosure by the river Lea'.

Early spellings of Luton include Lintone, probably meaning the same as London, and the two are joined by the River Lea.

{Sounds like Waulud's Bank, but the village was a few miles away, the other side of (at least) Leagrave and Biscot. Limbury, on the other hand, probably does refer to Waulud's Bank.}

Luton, which was Lygetun in AD 793, takes its name from the river Lea, which probably meant "light". It is just possible, however, that the Lea was associated with the Celtic god Lugus, who appears in Irish legends as "Lug of the Long Hand". In Ireland he was the patron god of cobblers - perhaps his English cousin preferred hatters!

Despite the seemingly logical derivation relating to the River, some have believed that Luton is a corruption of Low Town, relating to its position between two hills.

Hardly a corruption! An alternative spelling, perhaps. Even Lygetun, which looks rather exotic, can be pronounced "loo-ton", since a G can be a U.

Lugodonum can just as well be "Luuodonum". Ignore the Latin suffix, assimilate the string of vowels in one and remember the possibility that N is vowelly and non-descript and Lugodonum can be London, quite easily. Or drop the T/D and remember Y = U and Lugodonum can be Lyons, quite easily.
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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Lugodonum can just as well be "Luuodonum". Ignore the Latin suffix, assimilate the string of vowels in one and remember the possibility that N is vowelly and non-descript and Lugodonum can be London, quite easily. Or drop the T/D and remember Y = U and Lugodonum can be Lyons, quite easily.

Lyons was apparently the "fort of Lugus". Lug or Lugus is supposed to have been a triplet, any connection with the fleur de lys (or trefoil)? Lincoln's coat of arms is a red cross on a silver (argent) background with a gold fleur de lys in the centre. Another interesting place-name, it's known to have been an Iron Age settlement but any evidence is buried under Roman remains, not to mention modern buildings

The Lug/shoemaker connection is intriguing, there's a basis in folk lore

Gwydion (Lleu/Lug's father) charms leather from sea-weed and sets out in a boat of his own fashioning towards Caer Arianrhod. Disguising himself and Lleu as cobblers they set to their trade and Arianrhod sends out for a pair of shoes. Gwydion creates a pair that are too big, and a further pair too small. Eventually Arianrhod is enticed out so that the true measure of her feet can be taken. She comes to their boat and with this a wren alighted on the deck and the boy threw his needle and pierced it between the sinew and the bone of its leg. At this she laughed, saying: 'truly, with a skilful hand did the fair one strike it.' 'Yea,' he replied, 'God's curse upon you, for he has gained a name; and a good enough name it is. Henceforth he shall be Lleu Llaw Gyffes.

If the Romans appropriated Lug under the guise of Mercury, then it's not surprising to find him being linked with the Archangel Michael

High places (Mercurii Montes), including Montmartre, the Puy-de-Dôme and the Mont de Sène, were dedicated to him. In Christian times he seems to have been assimilated into the archangel Michael, and many of the former Mercurii Montes became "St Michael's Mounts".
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DPCrisp


In: Bedfordshire
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If the Romans appropriated Lug under the guise of Mercury, then it's not surprising to find him being linked with the Archangel Michael

So a full answer to "Why is Waulud's Bank empty?" requires a study of Lug, Mercury and Michael... (not to mention lay lines, ancient roads, Herm(es)itages and stuff). Waulud's Bank as St. Michael's Mount...?
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Hatty
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Early spellings of Luton include Lintone, probably meaning the same as London, and the two are joined by the River Lea.

Wasn't London the town of Lud who replaced Tamesis as god of the Thames, surely a more significant river than the Lea? (and is Isis, the stretch of Thames at Oxford, therefore named after Tamesis?)
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DPCrisp


In: Bedfordshire
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Wasn't London the town of Lud who replaced Tamesis as god of the Thames...?

There's a King Lud, son of Heli... and a Lludd... either or both anything to do with Lugh...? I dunno. But the placename scholars seem to like to tie themselves in knots over London, but not Luton, Linton, Litton... as if "London" can't be ordinary English.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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True Age of London

Three Empires:

Northern Africa is ruled by Carthage
Northern Mediterranean is ruled by Rome
Northern Europe is ruled by London
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Ray



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Re: True Age of London
All that is left of the real centre of power is under a lonely hilltop just off the A1307 southeast of Cambridge just over a mile from Stapleford.

Where on earth did you get that from? I didn't know there were any hilltops in Cambridgeshire. Now I've had a chance to check it in the atlas I know that a low range - the Gogmagog hills no less - divides the county from Suffolk. That's not where Stapleford is to be found, but that's beside the point.

What did whoever produced this information mean by the 'real centre of power'? And how did they arrive at it? This is important for those of us actively researching into this sort of thing.

My scenario is that the dynamic was in the Western coastal regions. I'd like to know if your source knows something I don't, i.e. he's aware of all the early doings in the West, but nevertheless has reason to believe that Stapleford held the whole island together - or if he's simply made the assumption (as so many do) that Southeast England has always been at the centre of everything.
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Ishmael


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Ray
Could you tell me if the bay encircling Poole was ever used in ancient times as a sheltered harbour? And if so how far back into BC?

Did you also know that the The Icknield Way runs from Gog Magog Hills to Stonehenge.
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Ray



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Yes and no - that is yes and no to the first question, no to the second.

It all depends on what you mean by ancient times. If you go back more than seven thousand years you get to the time when the sea level was still too low to separate England from France. I don't know exactly when Poole harbour became what it is now, partly because it's an ongoing process. It's not so much that the sea is still rising - although it seems it is again at the moment - more that the southwest is continuing to sink. This movement extends at least as far east as the Isle of Wight, but the effect is more apparent in some places than others.

Recent echo location surveys have revealed complex dryland features way out from the present shoreline, including the remains of housing. The work has hardly begun, so it looks as though there may have been a good-sized population spread over what is now the floor of the English Channel. In that case the inhabitants would have been driven north, or south with the rising waters, so I think it's more than reasonable to assume that Poole harbour has been in use as for as long as it's been in existence. How helpful is that?

I'm not sure if I knew about the Icknield Way or not. I've a feeling it has some significance for you.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Ray
Your info is very helpful indeed.

The Icknield Way is reputed to be the oldest road in Britain and runs from the Wash to Salisbury Plain. Beyond the plain to the south are earthworks, long barrows and the remains of an old road that stretch south towards the coast. From one sheltered harbour to another perhaps.
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Wireloop


In: Detroit
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Consider nature's 'way' (path).

If you were going to take a very long journey, what is the quickest way from the Salisbury Plain (Stonehenge) to 'open water'?
I mean, you cannot transport a boat over the Icknield way can you?

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1583689,00.html

Rare is the path that runs 'directly' north, or south, or east, or west.
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Mick Harper
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This reminds me that England/English has the very great peculiarity of having some (I think I remember someone saying the other day) thirty-three different ways of saying "street". Opening my London A-Z at random we have in one column
Road
Side
Street
Gardens
Drive
Place
Vs (?)
Grove
Inn
Crescent
Lane
Avenue
Park
Square
Terrace
Mount
Close
Mead
Of course these are all modern streets and perhaps tell us most about Britain's intensely urban neuroticism. However it may be an echo of things past when different types of road had different names. For instance, Roman roads got called "street" even though this is nowadays an entirely urban phenomenon. Why? And I think "way" usually denotes an old drovers' road -- which in towns gets called Green Lanes. But it's an area that needs opening up.
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