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The evolution of the Viking ship. (NEW CONCEPTS)
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Jorn



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I don't quite understand why it is still so controversial that the Norse settled in Canada, but it obviously is.

First you have this:


Then you have this:
Ottawa researcher's firing derails Viking project

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/travel/Ottawa+researcher+firing+
derails+Viking+project/7591294/story.html


Also interesting is this:
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Komorikid


In: Gold Coast, Australia
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From the Gallic Wars Vol. 3

For their ships were built and equipped after this manner. The keels were somewhat flatter than those of our ships, whereby they could more easily encounter the shallows and the ebbing of the tide: the prows were raised very high, and, in like manner the sterns were adapted to the force of the waves and storms [which they were formed to sustain]. The ships were built wholly of oak, and designed to endure any force and violence whatever; the benches which were made of planks a foot in breadth, were fastened by iron spikes of the thickness of a man's thumb; the anchors were secured fast by iron chains instead of cables, and for sails they used skins and thin dressed leather. These [were used] either through their want of canvas and their ignorance of its application, or for this reason, which is more probable, that they thought that such storms of the ocean, and such violent gales of wind could not be resisted by sails, nor ships of such great burden be conveniently enough managed by them. The encounter of our fleet with these ships' was of such a nature that our fleet excelled in speed alone, and the plying of the oars; other things, considering the nature of the place [and] the violence of the storms, were more suitable and better adapted on their side; for neither could our ships injure theirs with their beaks (so great was their strength), nor on account of their height was a weapon easily cast up to them; and for the same reason they were less readily locked in by rocks. To this was added, that whenever a storm began to rage and they ran before the wind, they both could weather the storm more easily and heave to securely in the shallows, and when left by the tide feared nothing from rocks and shelves: the risk of all which things was much to be dreaded by our ships.


Julius Caesar has perfectly described a Viking Knar and it also fits perfectly with Homer's description of the Achaean ships.

The proposition that the Vikings "arrived" on the scene as if they had been created from the whole cloth is more than suspicious.
The notion that they are purely Scandinavian in nature and technology is stretching credulity to the limit.

So is the notion the Celtic mariners and the Phoenician mariners were competitors - how could they be when they spoke the same language.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Komorikid wrote:


Julius Caesar has perfectly described a Viking Knar and it also fits perfectly with Homer's description of the Achaean ships.



Which is strange, as if it happened, (and the whole account is really a revamped hunting scene of the cunning ferocious Roman Wolf attacking a Celtic deer.) then he should have been surely looking at something like a Gaelic type Birlinn type of vessel, which had been merrily sailing around our shores long before the Vikings......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birlinn
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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But there again the idea that the locals had boats as well as coracles and had been fishing and mining for millennia is really a bit of a blow to invasion theorists and those that create FAMILY TREES of advanced seafaring warriors.....
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Jorn



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Komorikid wrote:


Julius Caesar has perfectly described a Viking Knar and it also fits perfectly with Homer's description of the Achaean ships.

The proposition that the Vikings "arrived" on the scene as if they had been created from the whole cloth is more than suspicious.


I don't know how I should relate to what you write. Do you think Caesar and Homer lived in the Viking age? For me the Caesar description sound like a dutch cog, making Caesar even later than the Vikings.

They have found Roman ships in the rivers of Italy and Germany, and they are comparable to the Viking ships they have found.

Nowhere on these ships do people sit on top of each other, and as I have said before, no trireme as literally being three rowers on top of each other, have ever been found. If a trireme just meant a warship, this one from Germany fits the descriptions quite well.



Since there was no tar found on this ship, it was meant mainly for fresh water sailing.

The Roman ships have also be reconstructed, but so far no modern Roman ship has sailed the high sea, for very good reasons. The Roman mortise and tendon technique makes for a stiff, inflexible hull, and it is also a heavier construction.

Clinker built Viking ships are constructed to float on top of the water, rather than cut through it. They also flex and bend, thus absorbing impacts from larger waves.

Komorikid wrote:
The notion that they are purely Scandinavian in nature and technology is stretching credulity to the limit.


I find it quite credible that one of the longest coastlines of the world, where it is more or less impossible to move anything over land, should be the homeland of ocean going vessels.
Also worth noting, is that evolving a ship is not the same as evolving a wagon. If something goes wrong on a wagon, you don't die. Last century one in four male coastal dwellers died at sea, and I doubt it was any better the centuries before that.

This alone doesn't matter though, because the the Indians in Canada could have evolved ships as well, as both the climate and coastline are pretty similar.

What is important, is that it is in Scandinavia where you have found the intermediate type of boats between the dug out log boat and what can be called a ship. Most of the boats found in Scandinavia are also small, simple vessels, meant for local transport or fishing.

Komorikid wrote:
So is the notion the Celtic mariners and the Phoenician mariners were competitors - how could they be when they spoke the same language.


Where are the intermediate Celtic and Phoenician boats, and where are all the small ones? What kind of ropes did they use, and did they tar the ropes?

If so, where are the Celtic and Phoenician tar kilns?

How about rigging?

I bet good money that the rigging on the Roman boat on the image have theirs copied from Viking replicas, that again are copied from 18 century North-Norwegian small fishing boats.



From the first rowing boats, to one started to use sails, it is estimated around 1000 years in Scandinavia. The main reason it took so long, is probably that sailing demands a much more steady boat, because it is so easy to capsize.

Did the Celts and the Phoenicians use round rocks as ballast as well, that would fall out in case of capsizing, so that the boat did not sink?
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Jorn wrote:


Did the Celts and the Phoenicians use round rocks as ballast as well, that would fall out in case of capsizing, so that the boat did not sink?


TME wrote:
The legend of Piran or Perran, claims that in Ireland he was chained to a millstone(sic)and thrown into the raging sea.....but as soon as he rolled off the cliff the sea grew calm and he floated on the millstone to Perranzabuloe on the Cornish coast...
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Jorn



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Wile E. Coyote wrote:


TME wrote:
The legend of Piran or Perran, claims that in Ireland he was chained to a millstone(sic)and thrown into the raging sea.....but as soon as he rolled off the cliff the sea grew calm and he floated on the millstone to Perranzabuloe on the Cornish coast...


I have been reading about Irish round houses for the last hours, and how the Irish switched to Scandinavian style houses almost immediately after that the vikings arrived.

This is just two links, but it is easy to find more:
http://tribes.tribe.net/diasporagael/thread/d82523e3-7c25-4d96-b040-c26ccf89902b

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/the-vikings-it-wasnt-all-raping-and-pillaging-1643969.html

It also seems like the Norse integrated well, and that it lead to a cultural and technological blossoming.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NorseGaels



I work as a carpenter, and know that far more important than being good at something, is having the correct tools.

As it was iron that seems to have been the most important export article from Scandinavia in what we call the early viking age, my educated guess is that the increased living standard in Ireland was down to the masses getting hold of relative cheap iron tools to build houses with for the first time. Cheap iron also meant that wheels and wagons could be built lighter and stronger, and that you could build better looms and other tools that one needed.

I haven't looked into it yet, but tin and cloth probably went the other way.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Jorn wrote:


Since there was no tar found on this ship, it was meant mainly for fresh water sailing.

Where are the intermediate Celtic and Phoenician boats, and where are all the small ones? What kind of ropes did they use, and did they tar the ropes?

If so, where are the Celtic and Phoenician tar kilns?



Orthodoxy says re TR words .... tar, trust and true all come from tree.

So, for example you get Online.....Etymology Tar.....

"probably a derivation of *trewo-, from PIE *drew- "tree" (cf. Skt. daru "wood;" Lith. darva "pine wood;" Gk. dory "beam, shaft of a spear," drys "tree, oak;" Goth. triu, O.E. treow "tree;" see tree"

Here is Online... True.....

O.E. triewe (W.Saxon), treowe (Mercian) "faithful, trustworthy," from P.Gmc. *trewwjaz "having or characterized by good faith" (cf. O.Fris. triuwi, Du. getrouw, O.H.G. gatriuwu, Ger. treu, O.N. tryggr, Goth. triggws "faithful, trusty"), perhaps ultimately from PIE *dru- "tree," on the notion of "steadfast as an oak." Cf., from same root, Lith. drutas "firm," Welsh drud, O.Ir. dron "strong," Welsh derw "true," O.Ir. derb "sure."

But thinking it through, within a Jornian 'Weltanschauung' ie you are buggered without tar... this is most probably the wrong way round.

Tar leads to trust and true.

Which would normally lead me to "star"........

But, fearing the worst, I think I will pass on this.......

Needless to say, the answers are both simple and obvious.
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Jorn



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Wile E. Coyote wrote:
Jorn wrote:

Tar leads to trust and true.

I think that is correct.

tjære = tar
kjære = dear, beloved

The words are pronounced the same, although different dialects differ if they use tj-sound for both or kj-sound for both.

I don't think you should drag High German, or any of the assumed proto-languages into it though.
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Boreades


In: finity and beyond
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Spotted in The Times of two days ago

A longboat full of Vikings, promoting the new
British Museum exhibition, was seen sailing past
the Palace of Westminster yesterday (see page 16).
Famously uncivilised, destructive and rapacious,
with an almost insatiable appetite for rough sex
and heavy drinking, the MPs nonetheless looked
up for a bit to admire the vessel.


Apparently the Vikings did get as far up river as the British Museum, and have set up camp there.

See: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/photos-day-world-april-15-gallery-1.1757243?pmSlide=4
and: http://www.britishmuseum.org/vikings
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Boreades


In: finity and beyond
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In true AE-style, perhaps young Scandinavians have always had a wanderlust, or just can't stand living at home with their parents.

The image below is from an article about the 45-55% of young southern European adults (25-34 year olds!!) living with their parents. It glosses over the fact that hardly any Scandinavians do the same.

Socio-economic excuses are available from all good mainstream media outlets.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-22/euro-young-adults-living-their-parents-zone

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Boreades


In: finity and beyond
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The "not-staying-at-home" behaviour-pattern bears a striking resemblance to the distribution of the Haplogroup I blood group, said to be the oldest major haplogroup in Europe.

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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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So Hitler was right. Race miscegenation leads to cultural decline among the Aryan peoples.
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Boreades


In: finity and beyond
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Ishmael wrote:
So Hitler was right. Race miscegenation leads to cultural decline among the Aryan peoples.


Wrong.

1) Breeds are strengthened and improved by selective cross-breeding.

2) Breeding within breeds slowly but surely leads to genetic and behavioral abnormalities. See Rare Breed Dogs. Or the British Royal Family.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Boreades wrote:
In true AE-style, perhaps young Scandinavians have always had a wanderlust, or just can't stand living at home with their parents.

The image below is from an article about the 45-55% of young southern European adults (25-34 year olds!!) living with their parents. It glosses over the fact that hardly any Scandinavians do the same.

Socio-economic excuses are available from all good mainstream media outlets.



Why did so many AS coins end up in Scandinavia, Danegeld? Trading Networks? Migration networks?
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