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The evolution of the Viking ship. (NEW CONCEPTS)
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Mick Harper
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Show me a picture of a Viking ship that could transport a horse from Scandinavia to Britain.
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Jorn



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Ishmael wrote:
Jorn wrote:
I...was told by Ishmael that he wanted proof before he would discuss anything about the Viking ship evolving in Scandinavia.


This is all very interesting.

However, for the record, I was referring specifically to your assertions regarding the evolution of words.


You did, but it is kind of hard to show that the oldest maritime words are of Norse origin, if you don't show the whole evolution from logboat to viking ship, as I agree that just a similarity of words alone, are not enough to show the origins of words.

That post is going to be a wall of text, so it's perhaps better to wait a few days, and look at the evolution of the Viking ship for now.
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Jorn



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Mick Harper wrote:
Show me a picture of a Viking ship that could transport a horse from Scandinavia to Britain.




From wikipedia

A knarr is a type of Norse merchant ship famously used by the Vikings. Knarr (knǫrr singular or knerrir plural) is of the same clinker-built method used to construct longships, karves, and faerings.

History

The name knarr is the Old Norse term for ships that were built for Atlantic voyages. The knarr was a cargo ship, the hull was wider, deeper and shorter than a longship, and could take more cargo and be operated by smaller crews. They were built with a length of about 54 feet (16m), a beam of 15 feet (4.5m), and a hull capable of carrying up to 24 tons.[1] It was primarily used to transport trading goods like walrus ivory, wool, timber, wheat, furs and pelts, armour, slaves, honey, and weapons. It was also used to supply food, drink, and weapons and armour to warriors and traders along their journeys across the Baltic, the Mediterranean and other seas. Knarrer routinely crossed the North Atlantic carrying livestock such as sheep and horses, and stores to Norse settlements in Iceland, Greenland and Vinland as well as trading goods to trading posts in the British Isles, Continental Europe and possibly the Middle East.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knarr

The only knarr found to be well preserved is what is called skudlev 1.

To have room for cargo, there were only oars in the bow and stern of these ships, and they are supposed to have had a crew from 4 to 8 men.



If you want more information about how the knarr handled, you could google "saga siglar", (the saga is sailing) the replica pictured above. It sailed for many years around the globe, before going down in some storm.
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Wile E. Coyote


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I am struggling to keep up.

From what I can see the Viking Ship evolved from a sledge.
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Jorn



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Wile E. Coyote wrote:
I am struggling to keep up.

From what I can see the Viking Ship evolved from a sledge.


Never thought about that, but it is very likely, as transport over frozen lakes and landscapes were the preferred method to move heavy objects until the truck arrived. The coast never freezes though, because of the gulf stream, so they need ships.

You also find the verb ake(nor) /Ã…ke(swe) that means to glide over the snow/ice, and you find the word Ahkio (at least in saamic) for sled. (You often find old Norse loanwords in both Saamic and Finnish)

The word Sledge (slede) is related to the verb slepe, that means to drag something after. A "slepe-anker" is an anchor that is used so the boat moves slower, but is not anchored on the bottom. (can't find the English word. )
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Wile E. Coyote


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Jorn wrote:


You also find the verb ake(nor) /Ã…ke(swe) that means to glide over the snow/ice, and you find the word Ahkio (at least in saamic) for sled. (You often find old Norse loanwords in both Saamic and Finnish)

The word Sledge (slede) is related to the verb slepe, that means to drag something after. A "slepe-anker" is an anchor that is used so the boat moves slower, but is not anchored on the bottom. (can't find the English word. )


There you go....You got it!
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Mick Harper
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The word Sledge (slede) is related to the verb slepe, that means to drag something after. A "slepe-anker" is an anchor that is used so the boat moves slower, but is not anchored on the bottom. (can't find the English word. )

Interestingly, we don't have a word for this, we simply use the term 'sea-anchor'. That is rather extraordinary since it is quite an important bit of kit and we normally have a word for the most obscure thingy-on-a-ship.

We do have the word 'kedge' which is a light anchor used for winching boats manually.
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Wile E. Coyote


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According to my silicon mate it is a drogue.(?)

Dog at the front Drogue at the back.....
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Mick Harper
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Not quite the same since a drogue appears to be for slowing the ship down in a storm whereas a sea-anchor is meant to be a bona fide anchor when, for whatever reason, a conventional one can't be used.
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Jorn



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Mick Harper wrote:
Not quite the same since a drogue appears to be for slowing the ship down in a storm whereas a sea-anchor is meant to be a bona fide anchor when, for whatever reason, a conventional one can't be used.


I am an amateur with boats, as I don't live along the coast, but from what I can see, a drogue-anchor "Driv-anker" and "slepe-anker" means the same thing. Drivanker seems to be the most common name.

On a side line, I helped my neighbor with his boat today, and he told me you find many places along the coast named "drag" in addition to "eid", where they used to drag their boats over land. He also said that they reckoned the Knarr was so "flat-bottomed" because of this, and that this would have caused problems if they did not use enough ballast.
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Wile E. Coyote


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So it is the anchor ....that develops into the christian cross.
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Wile E. Coyote


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Hector and Christ were keelhauled.
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Ishmael


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Mick Harper wrote:
...a drogue appears to be for slowing the ship down in a storm...


Obviously drogue = drag. We ought not to presume that drogue is the original.
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Jorn



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Ishmael wrote:
Mick Harper wrote:
...a drogue appears to be for slowing the ship down in a storm...


Obviously drogue = drag. We ought not to presume that drogue is the original.


I have done some reading on anchors, daymarks and other old maritime words, and it is sometime really hard to say if some words are from Norwegian, Swedish, Danish , English, Dutch or Frisian.

All these languages have the root dr- used in a similar fashion.

Drive
Drift
Draft
Drag
Trawl
Troll

What is not hard, is to see that derivations from these roots are loanwords in other languages, High German being one of them.
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Jorn



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Wile E. Coyote wrote:
Hector and Christ were keelhauled.


To Baptize is to dip, and linjedip, is the ceremony where you cross the line (equator)

In Swedish this ceremony is called hansning (hazing), or "sotning vid linjen", blackening by the line.

Hone is a barber's knife, and in the descriptions I have read, first timers were first blackened, then shaved, before they were dipped. First when you had done this, could the new Crest grow out again?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line-crossing_ceremony

The ceremony has many names, so my guess is that it has been Christianized. I suspect that it was originally a ceremony to Aegir. (Sea-giver?)

- for the sea and - for a river, seems to be old in even OE and ON.
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