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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Tel in Hebrew, tall in Arabic, is defined as
A mound, especially in the Middle East, made up of the remains of a succession of previous settlements. |
I don't understand. Is this a modern archaeological term? I find it difficult to believe that Arabs would naturally have a term for a hill made up specifically of archaeology. It would say something about Arab culture if they did. [I am further assuming that the Hebrew word is modern in either case but say if you think it isn't.]
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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The definition of tell reminds me of a Jewish cemetery in Prague, the smallest cemetery I've seen, where the gravestones had to be placed on top of each other due to space restrictions. Tells aren't classified as burial grounds yet they're typically apart from modern towns. [I think the Hebrew tel meaning 'hill' or 'mound' is in the OT, long before the rebirth of Hebrew].
Digging up the Middle East was a Victorian habit wasn't it? I doubt anyone in the region whether Jew or Arab would have coined the word tell to apply to archaeological mounds specifically.
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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| Is this a modern archaeological term? I find it difficult to believe that Arabs would naturally have a term for a hill made up specifically of archaeology. |
Yes, tell was taken up (in 1864) as a technical term.
I think it was Ray who pointed out that they demolished the whole place on a periodic basis and rebuilt a 'city' of the same size, on the same spot. Ain't no normal behaviour I've ever heard of.
Is it all, or only some, of the tells where bodies are buried under each successive floor level?
'Course, believing that these were normal habitations, the archaeos have come up with an explanation about the weather and the materials to explain why tells can reach 50 metres while "Anglo-Saxon" villages reach zero metres, as in the Time Team discussion.
Notice that tall really means swift, prompt; and the thing about tel/tall/tells is that they rise all sudden like out of the plain. (Dead also means sudden, decisive: dead and tel- are probably cognate; and deal, to divide. Chop!)
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| DPCrisp wrote: | | As I say, he could have done that if Polyphemus were a rabbit (which would make an excellent association with the satyrs). Now... where have I heard of a terrible man-eating rabbit living in a cave...? |
That's no ordinary rabbit!
BTW - There's a rabbit on the moon.
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Komorikid
In: Gold Coast, Australia
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Dan wrote: | The misconception already seems to be in place in Homer, innit: Odysseus blinds Polyphemus with one skewer in one go. |
Not really. The misconception arose after it was translated from the Greek. The original Greek word is opthalmoi which is plural. It is still used today to describe the two eyes painted onto fishing boats in the Med.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| The original Greek word is opthalmoi which is plural. It is still used today to describe the two eyes painted onto fishing boats in the Med. |
That's interesting. Fish eyes are protruding (to goggle like a fish) and round too. In fact eyes are fish-shaped, sort of.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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The nips and chinks call us round-eyes.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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Mick Harper wrote: | The nips and chinks call us round-eyes. |
I've had that in my mind the whole time as well.
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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| The original Greek word is opthalmoi which is plural. |
Can you check the exact wording of the passage where Odysseus blinds Polyphemus? What did he use? Did he get a chance to stab twice...?
| Fish eyes are protruding (to goggle like a fish) and round too. In fact eyes are fish-shaped, sort of. |
Yes that's better. Fish are deeply associated with wisdom: Cyclops as fish people rather than rabbit people. They were quite likely sea farers, after all. (That reinforces the parallel I suggested with the Centaurs, too.)
| The nips and chinks call us round-eyes. |
Cyclops as a different racial type? The graciles versus the robusts... Megalithics, Rhesus Negatives, Celts...
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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I forgot for a second there that the Cyclops were children of Poseidon, Tamer of Horses.
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Chad
In: Ramsbottom
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From page 1: | Ishmael wrote: | | Hmm. Pollux is supposed to be short for Polydeukes, "very sweet": but "put up your dukes" means get ready to box. |
Brilliant! His name then seems to be "many fists." |
So it's nothing to do with the Marquess of Queensberry then?
| From Wiki: - - Marquess of Queensberry is a title in the peerage of Scotland. The title has been held since its creation in 1682 by a member of the Douglas family. The Marquesses also held the title of Duke of Queensberry. |
Wasn't Mick a pugilist in a previous life? ... (Southpaw if memory serves).
(By the way, I'm correct in assuming you weren't being serious, aint I)?
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| Pollux is supposed to be short for Polydeukes, "very sweet": but "put up your dukes" means get ready to box. |
Just occurred to me that duke is similar to douce and duce is almost the same as dulce or dolce. Nick's mention of merced as part of the formal expression for 'you' reminds us that titles are often accompanied by fawning epithets (grace, honour, highness and so on) so to call a high-born personage 'your sweetness' isn't surprising.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| So it's nothing to do with the Marquess of Queensberry then? |
This used to be the explanation until someone pointed out that the phrase pre-dated him (not to mention he wasn't a duke). However the current explanation, that it is Rhyming Slang:
Duke of York
Fork (fingers, as in I forked him, I picked his pocket)
Fist
is so silly that even the experts squirm. It really does seem on this occasion that the underworld is in touch with the...um...underworld.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Chad wrote: | | (By the way, I'm correct in assuming you weren't being serious, aint I)? |
No. We are very serious.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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However the current explanation, that it is Rhyming Slang:
Duke of York
Fork (fingers, as in I forked him, I picked his pocket)
Fist
is so silly that even the experts squirm. It really does seem on this occasion that the underworld is in touch with the...um...underworld. |
Fork again, and in conjunction with the aristocracy, not the most popular breed...could well have a less genteel meaning as per Ishmael's equation, bearing in mind there are two fists attacking on both sides.
Fists are rounded; Nicholas Crane, this time in the Cairngorms, made a special detour to scale the 'Devil's Penis' mountain, or Devil's Point as the Victorians more prudishly called it, and had a noticeably rounded shape or tip.
In tennis 'deuce' is used not as slang for the devil but to announce an even score, a rounded number: Probably from Low German duus, a throw of two in dice games, bad luck, ultimately from Latin duo, two. Interesting that two or duos is associated with bad luck.
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