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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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DPCrisp wrote:
Jupiter has got me wondering. D, J and Z are cognate. (TZ in modern Greek is 'dg', for instance. French J is 'zh'.) And we all know V = U. So Jupiter = Jovis-pater, "Jove Father" (dyaus pitr in Sanskrit) is but a short step from Zeus-pater.
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I started playing with the pronunciation of Jupiter according to your transliterations and interpolations of sounds. Substituting 'Z' for 'J' and 'e' for 'u' I read 'Jupiter' as 'Zepeter.' As I spoke aloud, my ear heard something familiar: the name 'Zebedee' -- the 'father' of the disciples 'James' and 'John.'
Mark 3:17 of the New Testament reads:
and James, the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James (to them He gave the name Boanerges, which means, "Sons of Thunder")
James and John, the sons of 'Zebedee', are also the 'sons of thunder'. Most Biblical scholars suppose James and John had bad tempers to earn this nickname from Jesus (where do they get the gall to draw such unevidenced conclusions?). We now know, thanks to your ideas, that the phrase was not some 'nickname' at all! It is a reference to "Zeus Father" or Jupiter: "Zebedee."
James and John are the Sons of Zeus! They are, in essence, Sons of God!
How was the name 'Zebedee' actually pronounced I do not know. Did the word begin with a 'Z' sound or was it an 'I-Y' sound?
| But it also means the J should be pronounced in the familiar way (as in 'edge'). But they tell us J in Latin is like I or Y. Iesus = Jesus, |
Now...would not the name 'Jesus' itself also be a possible derivative of Zeus? 'Zesus' meaning 'of Zeus?'
Oh...and apparently the true Sons of Zeus were Castor and Pollox(sp?) who were also called the Sons of Thunder. There is a whole theory out there that relates Homer to the gospel of Mark and uses this connection as part of the argument. However, the author of that theory is unaware that "Zebedee" equals Zeus!
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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More on The Sons of Thunder，
http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message_list.asp?boardID=4506&discussionID=376081
James and John are referred to as 'the Sons of Thunder', an appellation for the two Greek characters Castor and Pollux who are children of Zeus, who ask Zeus if they can have a special place in heaven, just as James and John ask Jesus.
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Luke 9:54 When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, 'Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them?'
Here we have the "Sons of Zeus" claiming they have the power to call down fire from Heaven!!! Holy Smoke!
Elijah did something similar. Is there a connection between "Elijah" and perhaps Elijov?
By the way, Zebedee's wife was named "Salome" -- which happens to be a Moon goddess and is also the name of the woman who "danced for the head of John the Baptist."
Seems the final "s" in Zeus is a bit superfluous -- making the real name "Zeu pater" -- essentially identical to Jupiter.
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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| James and John are the Sons of Zeus! They are, in essence, Sons of God! |
That's pretty cool, Ish!
I'd have said "Son's of Zeus" just meant (something like) "Greek pagans", but for the part about them calling down fire from heaven themselves. As it is, it's probably all mystic and metaphorical.
| How was the name 'Zebedee' actually pronounced I do not know. Did the word begin with a 'Z' sound or was it an 'I-Y' sound? |
With D in the mix (also cognate with T, don't forget), I'd say it has to be the 'hard' D/T/J/Z sound.
Now....would not the name 'Jesus' itself also be a possible derivative of Zeus?...
Deus -- and referred to a god of the bright day time. |
Yes, Jesus is the Sun King. {Even by Christian standards: "I am the Light of the world."} 'Day', 'deity'... all the same word, really. Everyone's word for 'ten' is related, too, apparently.
{Hmm: our calendar is supposed to have been arbitrarily mucked about by the Romans, but it seems significant that the Sun should be born in the tenth month, DECember. Maybe to do with a shift from 12- to 10-based numbers.}
| Thunderstones were widely called 'Zebedaei-stones' in Denmark, recalling the name of Zebedaeus, the father of the Nazorean twins. |
What a give-away!
| By the way, Zebedee's wife was named "Salome" -- which happens to be a Moon goddess and is also the name of the woman who "danced for the head of John the Baptist." |
Elijah = Eliza = Elizabeth?
ELIZABETH: From Elisabet, the Greek form of the Hebrew name Elisheba meaning "my God is an oath" or perhaps "my God is abundance". In the New Testament this is the name of the mother of John the Baptist.
ELIJAH: From the Hebrew name Eliyahu meaning "my God is YAHWEH".
ELYSIA: From Elysium, the name of the realm of the dead in Greek and Roman mythology, which means "blissful".
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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Breaking down the word Elizabeth as this etymology suggests we get:
El = God
i = is
Zabeth = abundance
But I see something else.
If Elijah means "My God is Jah" (El = God, i = is, jah = Jehovah) then Elizabeth is "My God is Zabeth." If Zabeth does mean "abundance" then the standard definition works. But does it really mean that -- or only that?
Zabeth sounds like Japheth, one of the sons of Noah. In fact, if the Z is J then this makes even more sense. We've already seen the b to p concordance testified to in Zebedee so the further conversion of "beth" to "peth" should be non-controversial.
This gives us El-i-japeth which I feel fully justified in rendering El-i-japheth, or "My God is Japheth."
So what does Japheth mean? It seems very clear. Japheth is yet another rendering of Zeus Pater: Ze-Pat. Thus, one of the sons of Noah (probably the eldest) is none other than Zeus himself. Zeus is his name and he is credited with being "the father," presumably of a great nation.
As one source explains, Japheth...
...became the progenitor of the Japhethite races among whom were the Medes, Ionians, and several nations who in OT times lived in what is now Asia Minor and southern Russia
Is this suggesting that Zeus was the literal ancestor of all the peoples who called him "father?" Other sources explicitly count the Greeks among Japheth's descendants.
In fact, the Bible appears to make an explicit connection between Japheth and the concept of "fathering."
Japheth with his brother Shem covered the nakedness of their father when he lay drunken in his tent, for which deed he received from his father the blessing that his descendants might extend over the surface of the earth....
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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Returning to "Elizabeth," the name must mean, "My God is Zeus the Father." This would suggest too that she, like James and John, are descendants of Zeus or Japheth.
Now, in Hebrew, the name Japheth (according to many sources) literally means "Beauty." Beauty is thus equated with the chief God of the Greek pantheon. Is this a kind of primordial formulation of Keats', "Truth is beauty, beauty, truth?"
Now one question is, why make the Mother of John the Baptist (who, unlike Jesus, may have been an historical figure) a descendant (or even daughter) of Zeus? One reason may be to make a couple of allusions. The second temple at Jerusalem was erected by Cyrus, who was a descendant of Japheth, according to Biblical genealogy. If Christ is a new covenant or a new temple, Elizabeth plays a kind of "God Mother" to Jesus.
But another possibility is in a certain prophecy connected with Japheth that, interestingly, connects him even more intimately with Greece. It is said of Japheth in Genesis that "God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant." The Hebrew phrase for "God shall enlarge Japheth" is actually a difficult one to translate. Some see in it a prophecy concerning the building of the second temple by Cyrus. But other Hebrew scholars see the full meaning thus: "The Law will be explained in the beautiful language of the Greeks, descendants of Japheth."
The gospels, of course, were written in Greek. Might they actually be claiming that the true "chosen people" were the descendants of Japheth rather than of Shem? Perhaps that is going too far. Nevertheless, I do see at least a kind of ancient "ecumenical" spirit in operation, attempting to bring Greeks and Jews together as a single people, united through Noah. Let us not forget that it was Shem and Jephath (Zeus) who together covered the nakedness of their father Noah (when he got drunk on his first batch of wine). Some Jewish writers go so far as to suggest that this means explicitly that "the descendants of Japheth will become proselytes and will study the Law in the schools of Shem."
What can that mean except that the descendants of Japheth will leave their homes in Greece to study the Torah in Jerusalem, and then convert the entire Gentile world to Judaism?
Now everything makes sense. Elizabeth, James and John are sons and daughters of Zeus, living in Palestine. This means they are fated by prophesy to expand the Jewish Faith into the whole of the Earth.
| ELYSIA: From Elysium, the name of the realm of the dead in Greek and Roman mythology, which means "blissful". |
The Jewish place of the dead, the blissful realm in which Pharisees like St. Paul believed the spirits of the righteous dwelled to await resurrection, was referred to most often as the "Bosom of Abraham." Had it been called "The Bosom of Elijah" I would have been more excited about the connection.
However, there is a sense in which Elijah may be connected with Elysia. Elijah is the the second figure in the Bible (the third and last, being Jesus, the first being an obscure person mentioned once in Genesis) to "ascend to heaven" in bodily form without having to die. In a sense, Elijah received "instant transport" to paradise.
This sounds an awful lot like the Islamic concept of Martyrdom, by which the dead are transported instantly to heaven while the rest of the righteous, though destined to the same place, would appear to take a more leisurely route after death.
That connects well with the Roman idea of instant transport to Elysium for dead warriors. I have read that Romans believed all men were extinguished at death save those great and noble warriors who earned a wraith-like existence in Elysium. However, if the connection with Elijah and the Islamic concept of martyrdom holds true, it may well be that the Romans did not believe in annihilation but a kind of two-tiered afterlife in which some people earned instant transport to the upper regions of heaven while others had to wait, ghost-like, in Hades for later elevation.
Elysium and Valhalla appear to be related concepts but the etymological connection is very obscure if it does exist!
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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James (the Great) = Jacob (later Israel), father of the twelve tribes.
He was born holding his twin brother Esau's heel, and his name is explained as meaning "holder of the heel" or "supplanter".
Other theories claim that it is in fact derived from a hypothetical name like Ya'aqov'el meaning "may God protect". Just a Jewish name?
John = Yahweh is gracious. Just a Jewish name?
James and John, sons of Zebedee, Sons of Thunder. We already did Zebedee = Jupiter = Zeus. Symbolic, but being sons and twins, they don't look much like leading men.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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John = Yahweh is gracious. Just a Jewish name?
James and John, sons of Zebedee, Sons of Thunder. We already did Zebedee = Jupiter = Zeus. Symbolic, but being sons and twins, they don't look much like leading men. |
You missed one of the main points of that discussion. Their real names are Castor and Pollux. There was a temple to Castor and Pollux right next to the Temple of Jupiter on the Capotine Hill in Rome. Look for Castor and Pollux to play starring roles in the Roman and Greek Dionysian "mysteries."
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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Thomas = twin: heavy-laden with mythology. Twins can be two aspects of the self: one killing the other is the object of the Mysteries.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Thomas = twin: heavy-laden with mythology. Twins can be two aspects of the self: one killing the other is the object of the Mysteries. |
Really? Explain.
James and John (Castor and Pollux) are also Twins. Sounds like they play starring roles indeed.
Some say Thomas is the twin of Jesus. That would coincide with my argument -- that Jesus is just one dying god who was elevated over the others -- who then became his disciples (i.e. James may have been killed by his twin John while Jesus was originally killed by his twin Thomas).
Oh yeah. Castor and Pullux were only paternal twins. One was half-god while the other was fully mortal (if I remember correctly). So that's one man-god for yeah. Who was it? James or John?
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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James and John, sons of Zebedee...
Their real names are Castor and Pollux... Look for Castor and Pollux to play starring roles in the Roman and Greek Dionesian "mysteries." |
Castor and Pollux were also in the supporting cast of Jason and the Argonauts... appeared in a scene of Theseus* {who kidnapped their sister, Helen}... and played henchmen of Peleus.
The twins are like yin and yang. {I can't remember any mythological identical twins off hand. Being twins, they are one, but they are different: conflicting aspects of one's personality; a higher self and a lower one.} Castor is a horseman, Pollux is a boxer: brains and brawn. They alternate between Heaven and the Underworld. Yin and yang.
Hmm. Pollux is supposed to be short for Polydeukes, "very sweet": but "put up your dukes" means get ready to box.
Castor means beaver or "he who excels". That's fine for the 'brains' half of the balance, but why 'beaver'? Beavers are known for their rather civilised engineering skills I suppose. And castrate refers to cutting, also a beaver skill.
{Castoreum is a perineal secretion of beavers used medicinally. It contains salicylic acid and was used to calm headache, fever and hysteria. Very yin. Moreover, if castration means yielding impotent and a beaver lodge is an effective protection, yielding attacks impotent, I can convince myself that Castor and Pollux are, figuratively if not literally, the same as the complementary opposites Castrate and Bollocks.}
| Jesus is just one dying god who was elevated over the others -- who then became his disciples |
It's an interesting idea, but isn't it normal for the outstanding characters still to have their companions and followers? Orpheus and Perseus were pretty much loners... Heracles, Theseus and Achilles had a favourite companion... Jesus, Arthur and Odysseus had twelve followers... there were dozens of Argonauts... The same thing comes up over and over in different guises and configurations: that's what mythology is about.
* By the way, Theseus went to claim his kingdom after recovering his father's sword from under a boulder: a sword from a stone? This was in Troizen.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Castor is a horseman, Pollux is a boxer: |
So now you know where Philip comes from. If Philip means horseman than he must be one half of yet another set of twins. It's starting to look like Jesus and the Disciples are just a collection of twins. Either that or all 12 are twins and Jesus is their titular head and lacks a twin.
But Jesus is said to have had a brother: James the Brother of Jesus. But James appears to have been a real historical figure who, claims of the Catholic Church notwithstanding, was something aproximating the first Pope.
So Christ's "Twin" would appear to be his human representative on Earth -- the head of the Church. The Church is the bride of Christ (a theological position established as early as St. Paul) and its leader is the Brother of Christ (the title by which St. Paul refers to James in Jerusalem).
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Hmm. Pollux is supposed to be short for Polydeukes, "very sweet": but "put up your dukes" means get ready to box. |
Brilliant! His name then seems to be "many fists."
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| {Castoreum is a perineal secretion of beavers used medicinally. It contains salicylic acid and was used to calm headache, fever and hysteria. Very yin. Moreover, if castration means yielding impotent and a beaver lodge is an effective protection, yielding attacks impotent, I can convince myself that Castor and Pollux are, figuratively if not literally, the same as the complementary opposites Castrate and Bollocks.} |
Dan. I think you have it exactly.
The twins are the castrator and that which is castrated. It's the oldest myth of creation in all the universe. The whole that is nothing but, in being divided, becomes two and therefore something.
The ancients held that the universe was once one. Singular. Homogenous and whole. But in so being, it was nothing. It was complete perfect nothingness.
But the nothing was split into two by the creative force of chaos and, being so divided, the singular nothing became two somethings -- each part being separate and therefore distinct from the other.
So Pollox (the testicles) is the part of the nothing that is separated from the whole by the chaotic force of Castor.
Now one idea that I have been working on is that the ancients believed that the nothing was separated at a specific point: that is, it was not cut into two equal halves. I most strongly suspect that the ancients believed the original omniverse to have been initially separated such that the larger part was 1.618 times as large as the smaller part. This number then is the divine number.
Now Dan....tell me....what is the ratio between the distance separating a man's foot and testicles to the distance separating his testicles and the top of his head?
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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If you examine the picture, you will see, on the far right, two lines: one light blue and the other white. The white line is the full length of the man's body. The blue line marks the larger part of that distance above, when the white line is divided by the Phi ratio.
You can see that the blue line hangs down below the pelvis like testicles. It also intersects with the centrepoint of the thighs -- which explains why so many mythological characters are "wounded" in the thigh (most commentators claim that a wound in the thigh is nothing but a euphemism for castration imposed on ancient stories in more Puritan times -- but we can see from the picture that it is actually an accurate description of where the cut occurs).
This notion of the universe dividing at the mark of 1.618 may even explain male circumcision. As I have said before, I suspect one can read the Old Testament (testicles again) inserting Phi where one reads God and discover a whole host of hidden meanings.
Oh yeah...
If one turns the Phi ratio division upside-down, one finds that the navel sits at the point of separation. The umbilical cord is cut where the universe was separated (1.618).
So when the ancients speak of "the navel of the world," we should not assume they imply something to do with centrality. Not at all. The navel of the world must mark a point where the Earth is divided into two parts where one part is 1.618 times the size of the other. Now that's something to chew on.
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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| The Church is the bride of Christ and its leader is the Brother of Christ |
Jesus was ascended: it would have to be his mortal twin to head the Church.
| His name then seems to be "many fists." |
I don't quite know how to read this web page
but it says
pux: with the fist, p. agathos Poludeuk's good with the fist, i.e. at boxing
Pux, pugnacious, pugilist... meaning fists and fighting could well be cognate with duc, duct, duke... meaning leader.
Dunno where this meaningless, orthodox "'very sweet' from Greek polys 'much' and deukes 'sweet'" crap comes from.
| So Pullox (the testicles) is the part of the nothing that is separated from the whole by the chaotic force of Castor. |
Or Castor is the other part, the complementary opposite. Castrato and Bollocks.
{Isn't Chaos the undivided universe that comes before the autogenesis of differentiated properties and things? Is there is a force in someone's mythology/cosmology that keeps the opposites apart?}
| I most strongly suspect that the ancients believed the original omniverse to have been initially separated such that the larger part was 1.618 times as large as the smaller part. |
Hmm. Archetypal twins: they have the same relationship to each other but they are different. 1:Phi sure fits that better than 1:1. Nice one.
We did already mention that logos = ratio, right?
| ...the Old Testament (testicles again) |
I can see someone misreading that! But I know what you mean. Etymonline says
testis: L. testis "testicle," usually regarded as a special application of testis "witness" (see testament), presumably because it "bears witness" to virility {That's what NSOED says, too.} (cf. Gk. parastates, lit. "one that stands by;" and Fr. slang témoins, lit. "witnesses"). But Buck thinks Gk. parastatai "testicles" has been wrongly associated with the legal sense of parastates "supporter, defender" and suggests instead parastatai in the sense of twin "supporting pillars, props of a mast," etc. Walde, meanwhile, suggests a connection between testis and testa "pot, shell, etc."
Testa as pot, shell, container, bag of balls might come later, but testis as "twin supports" or "witness" can collapse together: rather as witness to Creation, Reality, the existence of the world in a grand sense than to virility, manhood or coming of age in a prosaic sense.
| If one turns the Phi ratio division upside-down, one finds that the navel sits at the point of separation. The Umbilical cord is cut where the universe was seperated (1.618). |
Yes, that's far more convincing than the testicle measurement.
The cut simultaneously creates two separate things, but we still think of one being cut off first and the other being left behind. Jacob was born after Esau but eventually took over from him {as James took over from Jesus}, was the greater. Esau was hairy and impetuous (innit?): very masculine. Jacob, as the founder, nurturer of the nations is feminine.
James means Jacob means the supplanter. John means Yahweh is gracious: gives us good things to be grateful for.
James is Jacob is Castor. John is Esau is Pollux. I reckon.
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