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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Dan is entitled to to have indigestion. The Megalithics are not 'urban liberals', our book doesn't portray them as civilised or even particularly nice.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| Now what is the sociological purpose of a religion? |
A sense of belonging, that elusive 'community' we keep trying to create or maintain?
| Why would urbanites be in particular need of a religion and why would they be most eager to cast aside -- and to encourage others to cast aside -- traditional belief systems? |
I guess a sense of community is needed more urgently in an urban environment. The second part of the question is hard but generally it's pretty likely that in a large mixed population a number of incomers will adapt or reject traditional customs and beliefs and it's normal to then want to be surrounded by similarly radical-minded people. Rather lonely being a lone rebel.
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Grant
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| I find it most amusing how former lefties, who have seen the light and embraced the philosophies of the right, do so with a zealotry indistinguishable from that of the religious convert. |
Not me, I certainly don't hold with all ideas generally thought of as conservative. But I agree that some conservatives have tried to turn their ideas into a religion, eg Ayn Rand supporters.
I don't think we can help it. We instinctively try to reduce the amount of thinking we have to do. It's easier to label yourself left-wing or right-wing and join the pack.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Not 'easier' but 'unavoidable given the human condition' unless you specifically use techniques to avoid compulsively doing it. Later on I explain why it is unavoidable given the way the brain is structured to hold knowledge.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| Not me, I certainly don't hold with all ideas generally thought of as conservative. |
Everybody says that (substituting conservative for whatever).
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Hatty wrote: | | Ishmael wrote: | | Now what is the sociological purpose of a religion? |
A sense of belonging, that elusive 'community' we keep trying to create or maintain? |
That would be my thinking.
| Why would urbanites be in particular need of a religion... |
I guess a sense of community is needed more urgently in an urban environment. The second part of the question is hard but generally it's pretty likely that in a large mixed population a number of incomers will adapt or reject traditional customs and beliefs and it's normal to then want to be surrounded by similarly radical-minded people. Rather lonely being a lone rebel. |
Bang on once again. I'm beginning to believe you are the only Applied Epistemologist left among us.
We evaluate the "rationality" of political belief systems too often against a too-narrow set of criteria -- that being whether the belief accords with the true nature of the universe. It can be perfectly rational to adopt a set of beliefs though they run completely contrary to the way the universe is constructed -- if the purpose of the belief is something other than conformity with or manipulation of cosmic law. In fact it may well be that a true test of group loyalty requires that the most fantastical or even irrational ideas be adopted and held with total conviction.
By adopting these beliefs -- especially in a context where outsiders stand opposed -- the community achieves internal peace. Everywhere a Manhattanite looks, he sees people who think as he does -- people who share his values -- no matter the color of that person's skin or the country from which he or his parents came.
Where liberalism is strongest is precisely those areas where fostering community from disparate peoples is most important. Where liberalism is weakest is where communities already exist and where local religions already help to hold the locals together.
Is conservatism a religion? No. It isn't. Conservatism is merely the absence of the prevailing urban religion -- like darkness is to light.
Furthermore, wherever any community may exist without a particular dogma, nature permits greater intellectual freedom to seek and adopt the truth. Rural peoples have their dogmas of course -- and in those areas they will be as close-minded as any urbanite. But their dogmas are in different areas -- or are the flotsam and jetsam left upon their shores by the receding wave of Enlightenment liberalism.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Grant wrote: | | It's easier to label yourself left-wing or right-wing and join the pack. |
It is anything but easy to label yourself "right-wing" when one lives within a certain socio-economic class. That is precisely why I adopt the label. Any other self-description would be a cop-out -- an act of cowardice.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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So very Ishmaelian. Making a virtue out of necessity. Being right-wing is not just intellectually rigorous it is positively heroic! Left-wingers too are convinced they are a minority battling away in an ocean of mugwumps.
The most interesting application of this theme nowadays is how children on 'green ventures' always convince themselves they are on some desperate voyage pitted against a world of uncaring non-greenies. They rarely appreciate that of course the rest of the class is doing the same thing, under the enthusiastic guidance of their teacher, and that it is all being done on a nationwide basis prompted by one of the BBC's campaigns!
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | Left-wingers too are convinced they are a minority battling away in an ocean of mugwumps. |
Attend any university campus. Why does every professor post several leftist political cartoons on his door? The same reason Jews hang a Mezuzah there.
Context: This is the difference between a compatriot "radical" community and a minority of one.
I don't have to adopt the right-wing label. Attending a social gathering I would find much wider acceptance were I to adopt the "libertarian" label -- which is now en vogue among people who don't have a fucking clue what it means. But I willfully alienate myself from uniformly left-leaning and left-sympathizing milieus in which I find myself to better maintain my intellectual integrity. Community is compromise.
So too is calling yourself an "Applied Epistemologist" and claiming you're above labels of left and right. This is the path taken by every "wise liberal" before you who wishes to maintain his social connections despite his evolving political opinions.
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I guess I should try to be supportive.
And I really shouldn't be critical, given that I can't even get off the crayoning-in table....
But....
Whoever appointed this new Latvian RE/sociology/ideology teacher, Maximo Bolloxagain... needs shooting.....then hanging...then drowning...
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| But I willfully alienate myself from uniformly left-leaning and left-sympathizing milieus in which I find myself to better maintain my intellectual integrity. |
Do you think you're rationalising what is presumably an enjoyable experience in an intellect-honing way?
It can also be quite boring!
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The most interesting religion post so far was when Scottie revealed that the Jesus Christ story was a version of the Julius Caesar story.
That is the heart of the matter. You can then look forwards.
What is the relationship between history and religion. What is the relationship between science and religion. What is the relationship between writing and religion?
If you look backward through the eyes of a sociologist you will always get a functional answer something like "err religious ideology helps keep society together"
Which apparently tells you lot something..... but it tells me nothing.
Ditto about ideolgy becoming a religion...... you are looking at it the wrong way round.....
Tells me. Nowt. Zilch.
Still it seems to work for you guys.
So what do I know?
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Grant
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| Furthermore, wherever any community may exist without a particular dogma, nature permits greater intellectual freedom to seek and adopt the truth. Rural peoples have their dogmas of course -- and in those areas they will be as close-minded as any urbanite. But their dogmas are in different areas -- or are the flotsam and jetsam left upon their shores by the receding wave of Enlightenment liberalism. |
If Ishmael means that country people are more likely to be intellectually free, surely 8,000 years of history contradicts him. Can anyone remind me of any great thinker who lived outside the city?
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Grant
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| The most interesting application of this theme nowadays is how children on 'green ventures' always convince themselves they are on some desperate voyage pitted against a world of uncaring non-greenies. They rarely appreciate that of course the rest of the class is doing the same thing, under the enthusiastic guidance of their teacher, and that it is all being done on a nationwide basis prompted by one of the BBC's campaigns! |
My favourite example of this is the "Grand Designs" type shows on TV. It's amazing how many rich people commission their own house, build a white minimalist construction with lots of glass and then invite admiration for their radical new design, totally unaware that houses like that were first built 100 years ago.
When we are victims of propaganda we very rarely see it.
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Grant
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| Do you think you're rationalising what is presumably an enjoyable experience in an intellect-honing way? |
Well said, Hattie.
Be honest, Ishmael, you love being the odd one out.
All of us AE supporters are instinctively bred to enjoy thinking contrary thoughts.
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