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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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At first, Ma Parker treats Hatty as an errant child
| This incident is not from Eadmer's saints' lives. |
But Hatty stands her ground
| If the same monk is the author of saints' Lives and a history, both genres are credible or not depending on the reader's credulousness. Is a Canterbury monk's account reliable? |
Finally the wool falls from Parker’s eyes. She is not dealing with some waif and stray who has wandered in from the ranks of the amateur enthusiast, she is dealing with an out and out troll
| Since you don't appear to have any knowledge of the specific sources we are discussing, or of contemporary scholarship on medieval historical writing - and in light of your bizarrely aggressive tone - I don't see the value of continuing this discussion. |
A better example of cognitive dissonance combined with projective identification would be hard to find. Except every time academics find themselves confronted by AE-ists. Hatty hurriedly tries to make amends
| Not intended to be bizarrely aggressive, just puzzled at the apparent credulity on display. Would be greatly obliged if you could elaborate on the (primary) source(s) you mentioned. Thank you in advance. |
But it is too late and Hatty is banned from making any further posts. And quite rightly so from Ms Eleanor Parker's perspective.
ends
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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This is the story. Kick off your shoes... it goes something like this. Eadmer and Anselm are off to a church council in Bari and they spot the Bishop of Benevento wearng a splendid cope........Eadmer recalls that in his youth he was told a story (sic) by monks of the then Bishop of Bari trying to raise funds to stave off a famine, he, the Bish, brings a relic to Angloland ....which was Bartholomew's arm... the bishop initially fails in his fundraising bid, so decides to sell the relic to Queen Emma (Cnut's wife) who then presents said bishop with a splendid cope.....
Eadmer's genius is to confirm with the Bishop... the story of the cope presented by Queen Emma.
Queen Emma after purchasing the arm gives it to Canterbury.
The story hangs on a thread, or threads, of this cope.
But what is the story of St Bartholomew ? How did he die? What is the provenance of his arm in Italy?
It is recorded that Bartholomew was first skinned alive and then put to death by decapitation in the Roman province of Armenia. Hence his relics.......
So hang on, how do bits of him arrive in Italy?
Five centuries after his death his relics were found in Lipari, Sicily. Tradition claims that the sarcophagus of St Bartholomew was thrown into the sea by infidels. It then floats upon the water until it finally and miraculously came to the shores of the tiny island of Lipari, the relics remain on the island until the middle of the 9th century. It is at this time they were transferred to Benevento, Italy.
In the 10th century the relics are transfered and interred again in the church of San Bartolomeo all’Isola on Tiber Island, however the good citizens of Benevento dispute this transfer, claiming they still have possession......
There is nothing wrong in missing out the beginning and end of a story..........but it does make the middle more difficult to understand.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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St Bartholomew is one of Benevento's patron saints so this 'arm' may well have been acquired from Benevento, pace Ms Parker, since the city was taken by the Normans in 1077 who then handed it over to the papacy after four years. The time needed to negotiate deals with Lombard merchants and the Vatican presumably, at a cost of an arm and maybe assorted privileges to Benevento.
Canterbury Cathedral was being built at the same time (1070-77) and no doubt welcomed the gift of a high-end relic.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| St Pirran wiki wrote: | | The heathen Irish tied him to a mill-stone, rolled it over the edge of a cliff into a stormy sea, which immediately became calm, and the saint floated safely over the water to land upon the sandy beach of Perranzabuloe in Cornwall. |
How Saints travel.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| Canterbury Cathedral was being built at the same time (1070-77) and no doubt welcomed the gift of a high-end relic. |
This is interesting. Might it be the case that, while everyone concerned (on the professional side) would know that all relics are per se bogus, there is still prestige attached to, as it were, the patina of bogusness? Thus a Bartholomeic arm of some lineage would still be a lot more valuable than one dug up to order in a Canterbury graveyard.
This is still true today. I don't know if the Shroud of Turin is still on show but its known history entitles it to a bit of reverence. The Book of Kells would still draw the crowds as "Ireland's most spectacular hoodwink". And of course its quality as a work of art is theoretically unimpaired.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| the sarcophagus of St Bartholomew was thrown into the sea by infidels. It then floats upon the water until it finally and miraculously came to the shores of the tiny island of Lipari, the relics remain on the island until the middle of the 9th century. It is at this time they were transferred to Benevento, Italy. |
That's odd because Benevento's basilica church of St Bartholomew was built in the twelfth century. Unless your source is the Annales Beneventani, three separate annals dated 1113, 1119 and 1123, reportedly from the monastery of Santa Sofia in Benevento. [There was a fourth annal included in the nineteenth-century Monumenta Germanaiae Historica but is now deemed a forgery].
Santa Sofia has been excavated and some of the oldest features such as poorly preserved frescoes are said to be 13th century, post-dating the Norman conquest. The church became a UNESCO World Heritage Site in 2011. A clear pattern can be seen.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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These are claimants for historical body parts/relics of St Bartholomew, who was flayed alive at at Albanopolis, Armenia (Baku).
The monastery of St Bartholomew Armenia at one point housed his body. After being overrun by the Persians Bartholomew was thrown into the sea, along with four other chests containing the relics of the holy Martyrs Papian, Lucian, Gregory and Acacius.
None of the chests sank and all reached Italy. The chest with the relics of the Apostle Bartholomew came to land at the island of Lipari, and the remaining chests continued their journey. The chest with the relics of the Martyr Papian halted at Sicily, the Martyr Lucian at Messina, the Martyr Gregory at Calabria, and the Martyr Acacius at Askalon
Here are the claimants for St Bartholomew.
Rome, Italy,...... (St Bartholomew on the Island)
Relics of St Bartholomew rest within a red porphyry basin
Benevento, Italy.......(St Bartholomew’s Basilica)
Relics of St Bartholomew rest within a porphyry urn
Lipari, (Sicily) Italy (St Bartholomew’s Cathedral)
Relic of the thumb of St Bartholomew rests within a silver arm reliquary in this church
Frankfurt, Germany (Frankfurt Cathedral)
The skull of St Bartholomew is venerated within this church. It rests within a Gothic reliquary located on the eastern wall of the right transept.
Canterbury, England (Canterbury Cathedral)
No existing relic.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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The conventional narrative is with the spread of Christianity, early churches appropriated pre-Christian holy sites (meaning Megalithic-era) and Roman temples. These early churches are in fact no earlier than 12th century so the challenge is bridging the gap. Hence missionary saints, or bits and pieces thereof, arriving from uncivilised places people have barely heard of (Armenia, Georgia, Ireland, Frisia).
The saints establish churches, monasteries, colleges, chapels etc, of which nothing has been physically verified (not for want of trying), but it turns out not to be a problem. Their non-physical existence is attested to by means of annals, biographical Lives, the Golden Legend and plain legend. And then you have relics.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Yes, annals plus relics. An uncanny foreshadowing of modern academia's way of proving the past -- history plus archaeology.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| on line etymology wrote: |
translation (n.)
mid-14c., "removal of a saint's body or relics to a new place," also "rendering of a text from one language to another," from Old French translacion "translation" of text, also of the bones of a saint, etc. (12c.) or directly from Latin translationem (nominative translatio) "a carrying across, removal, transporting; transfer of meaning," noun of action from past participle stem of transferre (see transfer (v.)).
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transfer (n.)
1670s, "conveyance of property," from transfer (v.).
transfer (v.)
late 14c., from Old French transferer or directly from Latin transferre "bear across, carry over, bring through; transfer, copy, translate," from trans "across, beyond" (see trans-) + ferre "to carry," from PIE root *bher- (1) "to carry," also "to bear children." Related: Transferred; transferring. |
It seems to the Wolf that the concept of translation has been "narrowed"......down the years.
When Wiley contends that Bartholomew's remains were translated from Armenia to Lipari before being transfered to Benevento, he will be hunted down and shot.
Still this translation process in all senses... both ancient and modern...both by pilgrimage and in script.....was what happened.
Notice that the 4 Caskets of relics, all arriving by flotation, means that the origin story of the arrival of Bartholomew is more likely to be true (in fact I wonder why your academics miss out this bit) because the listener can check the veracity of the Bartholomew story by visiting multiple locations.
CF Message in a bottle.
CF Becket translation.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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The Wolf reckons that in unpicking Canterbury.....
Mer...Chant is also worth a look.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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Actually it's a bit bonkers that Canter...Kent is thought to come from Rim, Border....
It's clearly Centre, most probably because the earliest settlers thought they were living on a small island (which they were!), it was just a lot bigger than they knew.
These earliest settlers had their island paradigm confirmed by the isle of Thanet.....so naturally enough the land adjacent was also a island (which it was!) but it turned out to be larger.
Canterbury is the centre of an island.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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Yes despite your reluctance Kent was Central.
Your settlers expanded south to Sussex and west to Wessex and along the Thames into the new middle. (Middlesex) and the North.. Towards the East was Essex.
As they trekked Eastward they discovered that folks had already arrived in the newly discovered area north east of Essex. These Folks had also thought they were living on an island (which they were) which they had divided into North and South (Norfolk, Suffolk).
The starting point is always Central. It's just the folks of Norfolk and Suffolk don't have one. Hang on, who were these folks? ....I.....ceni.....They progressed from Iken.....the later civitas was according to the Ravenna Cosmography: Venta Cenomum.
Your southerners' island paradigm was confirmed by the Isle of Wight, then they came up the Itchen. You start by believing your world is an island (I) of which you are the centre.
I might be on my own here....but it makes sense to the Wolf.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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This is of course why later folks considered California an Island, it's not a mistake, it's lived experience forming the basis of Weltanschauung......
As your academedicks would have it.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| I might be on my own here....but it makes sense to the Wolf. |
'He who travels alone, travels furthest.' (Sun Tzu). Though he wrote those words in the Imperial Palace where he had been born, the son of a concubine.
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