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The Cult of Serapis (Philosophy)
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Mick Harper wrote:
Youse guys must bear in mind that Egyptian is not a language as we would understand it. Probably nobody ever actually spoke it, leastways not in ordinary conversation. More a collocation of scribal conventions. A bit like the growth of English Common Law.

And what did the Egyptians speak?

Answer: The official language, Arabic.
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Wireloop


In: Detroit
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And what did the Egyptians speak?
Answer: The official language, Arabic
.

Ah, the sister of Hebrew-Aramaic-Geez and cousin to Greek.

Thinking out loud....

Could this have something to do with the ancient Beta Israel heritage of Ethiopia (Nubia)? Ge'ez as you may know is an ancient semitic language which is still used in the liturgy of both the Ethopian Orthodox church and Beta Israel. Very interesting.

Is it possible to pronounce GEEZ as JEWS?
And was there not a settlement of JEWS at Elephantine (the border of Egypt and Nubia) in the 5th Century BC?
Ethiopia has evidence of the Semitic language as far back as 2000 BC....or so we are told.
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EndlesslyRocking



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Mick Harper wrote:
According to the back of this envelope I have here...First Cataract....say, five thousand BC....twenty-seven point four three recurring cubic hectares of effluvient per year....yes, by God... Egypt!

What are the Cataracts for? Are they artifacts of imperfect engineering or are they intentional? They impede the passage of ships. And why are they called cataracts if they are not all that cataract-ish?
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Komorikid


In: Gold Coast, Australia
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And what did the Egyptians speak?
Answer: The official language, Arabic

The Egyptians spoke Egyptian or Coptic and beyond the scope of modern education still do. The EDUCATED Egyptians WRITE and speak in Arabic

There is a misconception that Arabic is and was an all encompassing spoken language. It is/was not. The Lebanese, Egyptians, Ethiopians, Libyans, Moroccans and many other North Africans speak different languages. Where 'standardised Arabic' has had little influence the people in all these countries still speak a version of their original tongue. That is why a Lebanese can tell for instance if an Egyptian wrote a passage of text he is reading.

All of these nations share a common linguistic origin but there is no evidence that it was Arabic. 'Standardised Arabic' is a Babylonian construct that was spread during the Muslim conquests. An example of this is Mali and Chad where they still speak Berber; although they have had Muslim schools there for over 1000 years the majority of the population are uneducated and still speak the original language.
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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And what did the Egyptians speak?
Answer: The official language, Arabic.


Ah, the sister of Hebrew-Aramaic-Geez and cousin to Greek.

It's striking though that few Israelis are fluent in Arabic and Israeli Arabs who've lived in the country since 1948 generally speak Hebrew haltingly. (And this is not just for political reasons, there are areas which, despite popular or lefty imaginings, where the two peoples live side by side).
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admin
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Chad wrote:

My currently (but not rigidly) held opinion is that Christianity has its roots in the beliefs of ancient Egypt and that Judaism is a sibling rather than parent religion.

I think what we see around the Mediterranean is people carrying out the traditions they have always engaged in. ... They were simply inherited by 'modern' Christianity when it became the established religion of the Roman Empire (whenever that was).

Now this is probably just a load of bollocks, so if anybody can enlighten me, please do.... I'm always quite happy to drop my old opinions like hot potatoes when bigger and better ones come along.
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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My currently (but not rigidly) held opinion is that Christianity has its roots in the beliefs of ancient Egypt and that Judaism is a sibling rather than parent religion.

I'd assumed Christianity was an amalgam of cultures, a result of Ancient Greece incorporating Egyptian beliefs which in turn entered into Roman ways of thinking (but it's only a vague assumption, would be delighted to be enlightened).

One of the central myths in Judaism is the destruction of the temple, twice over according to tradition; is the Wailing Wall indisputably the remnant of the second temple? According to archaeologists, the wall was part of a Roman (Herod's) fort.

I seem to remember Ray questioning the Diaspora, or maybe it was Ish, contending that the Jews were always scattered, an inherent condition. Could be there's a mundane 'commercial' explanation, for their dispersal as the archetypal trading and, more to the point, non-proselytising, nation.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Chad wrote:
My currently (but not rigidly) held opinion is that...Judaism is a sibling rather than parent religion [of Christiantiy].

Whoah.

I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on this matter.
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admin
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Chad wrote:

I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on this matter.

Right, I warned you earlier that this is probably a load of bollocks and I'm sure most of you have encountered this stuff before, mulled it over and dismissed it as nonsense. But here goes.

It's based on the idea that Pharaoh Akhenaten was related via his mother to some pretty influential Hebrew toffs. So when he pissed off the established religious hierarchy and formed his new monotheistic state religion based at his new capital Akhenaten, he surrounded himself not only with his Egyptian devotees but also his Hebrew relatives and their followers, who no doubt had an influence on his new religion - and vice versa.

When his reign ended in a rather uncertain manner, his followers had to do a runner and pretty sharpish. ... Those who fled south later became the pseudo-Jewish communities of Elephantine Island and Ethiopia, whilst those who fled north to the delta and on through Sinai, gave rise to the exodus tales.

Amongst this northern group were some of the Egyptian Atenist priesthood who kept themselves somewhat aloof from their Hebrew cohorts and tried to adhere more rigorously to their original beliefs. It was these beliefs which were passed down to the Qumran Essenes, who never fully integrated into mainstream Jewish society, and in turn gave rise to Christianity.

See I told you it probably bollocks - but there does seem to be some rather convincing evidence, particularly in the Qumran Copper Scroll and from a different angle in the research done by Ahmed Osman. - I can't go along with his idea that Akhenaten and Moses were actually the same person but his conclusions on Joseph seem very sound. Incidentally, Osman's twenty five years of painstaking work have been rubbished by orthodox Egyptologists simply because he has no formal academic qualifications in Egyptology.
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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So when he pissed off the established religious hierarchy and formed his new monotheistic state religion based at his new capital Akhenaten, he surrounded himself not only with his Egyptian devotees but also his Hebrew relatives and their followers, who no doubt had an influence on his new religion - and vice versa.

How similar though was Akhenaten's 'religion' to Judaic beliefs (assuming that ancient Judaism was pretty much as it exists today)? Sounds like palace politics; maybe the 'counter-reformation' was an attempt to dislodge the clique, an anti-Hebrew movement as much as a return to the old ways?

Amongst this northern group were some of the Egyptian Atenist priesthood who kept themselves somewhat aloof from their Hebrew cohorts and tried to adhere more rigorously to their original beliefs. It was these beliefs which were passed down to the Qumran Essenes, who never fully integrated into mainstream Jewish society, and in turn gave rise to Christianity.

Do the Essenes have anything particular in common with Egyptian priests apart from aloofness and a mystic outlook? Ahmed Osman apparently thinks Aten is a form of 'Adon' (Hebrew for 'lord') which is quite plausible but it's just as close surely to Greek 'atom', i.e. indivisible, whole (Jewish cults always keep themselves steadfastly apart from wider society). Alexandria was, after all, a 'Jewish' centre as Wireloop has told us, hardly surprising if Egyptian belief systems were heavily influenced regardless of the Pharoah's parentage.

Incidentally, Osman's twenty five years of painstaking work have been rubbished by orthodox Egyptologists simply because he has no formal academic qualifications in Egyptology.

He has a Masters in Egyptology!
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Ishmael wrote:
I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on this matter.

I've changed my mind.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Chad wrote:
Right, I warned you earlier that this is probably a load of bollocks

I tend to agree.

I've got a book right here in my hand called Moses and Akhenaten. I read it once a long time ago, when I believed in History. I'm afraid Fomenko has rather spoiled me on these topics and provided what I fear is a more simple explanation for parallels between historical figures such as Moses and Akhenaten.

My interest in your initial comments was sparked by my own suspicions -- which are predicated on a more recent origin for both Christianity and Judaism.

Nevertheless, even by conventional chronology, we would do well to recall that both faiths supposedly created their canons in the same general era.

What exactly would Christianity look like absent the Bible? What exactly is Judaism absent the Torah? How much older than the other could either religion be, absent their respective holy books?

Why are there Jews who dress like Pennsylvania Dutch but none who dress like those pictured in my Illustrated Bible Stories? Is there a sense in which sects like Ultra-Orthodox Judaism and Decenter Christianity became self-conscious in parallel and in the same (rather recent) period?

If you had a fundamentalist reactionary movement within early Christianity, might it prompt a return to the "Old Time Religion". If this movement rejected the novel, liberal doctrines, with what doctrines would it be left? With what canon?

Just thinking aloud of course.
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Rocky



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Ishmael wrote:
If you had a fundamentalist reactionary movement within early Christianity, might it prompt a return to the "Old Time Religion".


Interesting. I just read a book where the author claimed that the Book of Revelation was written in response to the power struggle within the Christian community (i.e. struggles among Christian groups about which of the various Christian points of view at that time, particularly when it comes to opinions about wealth, is the right point of view). This is opposed to the traditional view that Revelation came about because Christians were being persecuted by the mainstream.

Fomenko claims that the proper chronological order of the books of the Bible are the New Testament, then Revelations, then the Old Testament.
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Chad


In: Ramsbottom
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He has a Masters in Egyptology!


Must be a fairly recent acquisition -- the last I heard his only formal qualifications were in law.
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Chad


In: Ramsbottom
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Hatty wrote:
Do the Essenes have anything particular in common with Egyptian priests........


Unless I'm much mistaken both the Qumran Essenes and the Egyptians had hereditary priesthoods but then again maybe so did many other religious groups.

Robert Fletcher, in 'The Copper Scroll Decoded', reveals numerous connections between the Qumran Essenes and the Egyptians and in particular Akhenaten, but unfortunately he devotes much of the book to a tiresome hunt for hidden treasure. Shame he didn't distill his findings into two separate volumes.
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