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Megalithic Saints (British History)
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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SO....

I will have to do this on my own. I will have to be the first, the original, St Alban is the first, original Martyr of Albion ?
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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Hatty's chapter. Nuff said. Founding saints are dealt with in various places (not necessarily in Megalithic Empire), for instance in terms of Who Introduced the National Literary Language e.g. St Cyril. The general concept I suppose goes back to founding deities eg Athena. Your Alban/Albion is a good wheeze except how old is the term 'Albion'? How old, for that matter, is St Albans -- the name not the city. Who decided, and when, to ditch Verulamium?

We might consider whether there is any significance in having a martyr as your founding saint or a power-saint eg St Stephen in Hungary. This is different (isn't it?) to patron saints.
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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We only have Bede's word for it that the protomartyr Alban lived in Verulanium and even his place of residence is disputed, never mind his dates

According to the most elaborate version of the tale found in Bede's Ecclesiastical History of the English People, Alban lived in Verulamium, sometime during the 3rd or 4th century (see dating controversy below), but some authors, on the basis that Gildas says he crosses the Thames before his martyrdom, place his residence and martyrdom in London


St Alban, protomartyr, could be the English equivalent of 'Dauphin' status-wise. In France the title of Dauphin became royal in 1349.

Charles V (21 January 1338 – 16 September 1380), called "the Wise" (French: le Sage; Latin: Sapiens), was King of France from 1364 to his death, the third from the House of Valois. His reign marked a high point for France during the Hundred Years' War, with his armies recovering much of the territory held by the English, and successfully reversed the military losses of his predecessors.

In 1349, as a young prince, Charles received from his grandfather King Philip VI the province of Dauphiné to rule. This allowed him to bear the title "Dauphin" until his coronation, which led to the integration of the Dauphiné into the crown lands of France. After 1350, all heirs apparent of France bore the title of Dauphin until their accession.

It could also tie in with the Bayeux Tapestry purpose and/or dating

The Dauphiné was originally the County of Albon.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Let's run with this protomartyr nonsense for a bit, not as history but as cult.

Alban is the proto in fact he is still going strong in the 13th Century, his name is associated with St Albans, and the abbey.

The rival or maybe twin (thomas) cult is Becket's....

Sometime in the 3rd or 4th century, Christians began to suffer "cruel persecution."[3] Alban met a Christian priest fleeing from "persecutors" and sheltered him in his house for a number of days. The priest (who later came to be called Amphibalus, meaning "cloak" in Latin) prayed and "kept watch" day and night, and Alban was so impressed with the priest's faith and piety that he found himself emulating the priest and soon converted to Christianity. Eventually it came to the ears of an unnamed "impious prince" that Alban was sheltering the priest. The prince gave orders for Roman soldiers to make a strict search of Alban's house. As they came to seize the priest, Alban put on the priest's cloak and clothing and presented himself to the soldiers in place of his guest.[3]

Alban was brought before the judge, who just then happened to be standing at the altar, offering sacrifices to "devils" (Bede's reference to pagan gods).[3] When the judge heard that Alban had offered himself up in place of the priest, he became enraged that Alban would shelter a person who "despised and blasphemed the gods,"[3] and as Alban had given himself up in the Christian's place, Alban was sentenced to endure all the punishments that were to be inflicted upon the priest unless he would comply with the pagan rites of their religion. Alban refused, and declared, "I worship and adore the true and living God who created all things." (The words are still used in prayer at St Alban's Abbey).

The enraged judge ordered Alban scourged, thinking that a whipping would shake the constancy of his heart, but Alban bore these torments patiently and joyfully.[3] When the judge realized that the tortures would not shake his faith, he ordered for Alban to be beheaded.[3]


I can actually see the Becket myth in here but.... I maybe looking.
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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Quick thought. Bury St Edmunds is just up the road. Try him for size as a twin-martyr.
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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Alban was sheltering Amphibalus, a cleric, and when soldiers came to arrest him Alban was taken in his stead because he'd disguised himself in Amphibalus's cloak.

Other elements of the Alban legend are also familiar.

On the way to the place of execution Alban arrested the waters of a river so that they crossed dry-shod, and he further caused a fountain of water to flow on the summit of the hill on which he was beheaded. His executioner was converted, and the man who replaced him, after striking the fatal blow, was punished with blindness.

Then it's changed and seems more prosaic though Redbourn (on Watling Street) might have been chosen as suggestive of 'water reddened by blood'. Amphibalus (Amphibious?) wasn't elevated to protomartyr though he is apparently a mentor to Alban.

A later development in the legend informs us that the cleric's name was Amphibalus, and that he, with some companions, was stoned to death a few days afterwards at Redbourn, four miles from St. Albans.

The source for the holy mishmash is a Frenchman called Constantius. He "was a friend of Bishop Lupus of Troyes, who accompanied Germanus to Britain". The dating of his only known work, the Life of St Germanus, is disputed and it contains so many factual discrepancies that it's been described as 'allegorical'.

Still, controversy aside, it belongs to the Cult of Saints and is 'one of the first of its kind', giving evidence that a cult of St Alban existed

“When this damnable heresy had thus been stamped out, its authors refuted, and the minds of all re-established in the true faith, the bishops visited the shrine of the blessed martyr Alban, to give thanks to God through him.”
(Vita Germani 12)

What germ of truth may underlie these legends it is difficult to decide. The first authority to mention St. Alban is Constantius, in his Life of St. Germanus of Auxerre, written about 480. But the further details there given about the opening of St. Alban's tomb and the taking out of relics are later interpolations, as has recently been discovered (see Livison in the "Neues Archiv", 1903, p. 148). Still the whole legend as known to Bede was probably in existence in the first half of the sixth century (W. Meyer, "Legende des h. Albanus", p. 21), and was used by Gildas before 547. It is also probable that the name Amphibalus is derived from some version of the legend in which the cleric's cloak is called an amphibalus; for Geoffrey of Monmouth, the earliest witness to the name Amphibalus, makes precisely the same mistake in another passage, converting the garment called amphibalus into the name of a saint.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Hatty wrote:
Alban was sheltering Amphibalus, a cleric, and when soldiers came to arrest him Alban was taken in his stead because he'd disguised himself in Amphibalus's cloak.



Yes this is the bit where Becket, who had previously engaged in the manner of a courtier ie he chased the privilege and status of his chancellorship and marked it with sumptuous ostentation etc suddenly goes all archbishopery and dons the horsehair.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Given the cloak and Alban StAlbans (Major Roman finds)

https://bit.ly/2RK4Z81


Maybe it's a case of Vesta Alba
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Maybe Caesar.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Cloaked moon. Sun. Golden age.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Mick Harper wrote:
Quick thought. Bury St Edmunds is just up the road. Try him for size as a twin-martyr.


Rather interestingly he came back and murdered Sweyn Forkbeard Cf my musings on Edward Confessor death. OK don't bother.
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Wile E. Coyote


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It's something like. Hagiography (a perjorative term to a once respectable paradigm) is a forerunner of history, with these illustrations stuck in the middle, eg The Bayeux illustrations being mainly but not all linear (read left to right, condensed historical time frames) are towards the tail end of this process.
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Wile E. Coyote


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Mick Harper wrote:
Megalithic Saints (cont)

St George is another popular 'dragon-slayer', apparently a later and more obviously Christian version of Michael. In his pre-Christian incarnation he was a minor fertility god probably originating from Georgia in the Caucasus as his name suggests . George, or 'earth-worker', seems to be etymologically linked to gore--dirt, dried blood, the gouging horn-tip of a bull--which would place him as a metallurgical saint, but the other variant of his name to mean, a variation of gorge, or narrow valley, such as the Goring Gap which marks the half-way point between Avebury and Ivinghoe Beacon on the Ridgeway prompts navigational associations.

St. George's churches are often megalithically significant, especially those on a 'Roman road' beside a ford/weir/bridge,* but mostly his name is associated with pubs. A coaching inn called The George is probably commemorating the monarch but a 'George and Dragon' is always of megalithic interest. The patron saint of innkeepers is St Goar of Aquitaine, a sixth century monk famous for his hospitality after whom St Goar, a town in the Rhine gorge at the river's narrowest part, is named. He is represented as a hermit being given milk by a hind or a hermit with the devil at his feet, but also in a more intimate manner with a devil on his shoulder, reminiscent of Odin's ravens to whom pirates pay due homage by having a parrot on their shoulders .

* The main 'Via Iceniana' in Dorchester crosses the River Frome at Fordington, overlooked by a St. George's church on a beacon hill.



Pre-Christian minor fertility god, becomes serpent slayer?

Michael, George are not gods....they are messengers, a pony express. Now the dragon is another matter.

BTW Mr Google owes us a apology when St George’s Day or St Mark’s Day falls between Palm Sunday and the Second Sunday of Easter inclusive, it is transferred to the Monday after the Second Sunday of Easter.

St Georges is on April 29th.
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Mick Harper
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Michaelmas is the 29th of September. A quarter day in the Christian calendar and a solstice day in the Megalithic one. Perhaps you and Mr Google might work out what's going on when things are being transferred for no obvious reason instead of bitching at one another.
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Ishmael


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Wile E. Coyote wrote:
St George is another popular 'dragon-slayer', apparently a later and more obviously Christian version of Michael. In his pre-Christian incarnation he was a minor fertility god probably originating from Georgia in the Caucasus as his name suggests .


I'm convinced that all of this is wrong. St. George was a real historical figure. He is more real than Jesus Christ.

St. George = Genghis Khan = Henry V = Constantine the Great = ...
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