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Megalithic Saints (British History)
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Hatty
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Surely -ey is English. I had assumed that was the reason the 's' in 'island' is silent and of course it's still extant, in modern orthography, as eye.

But in any case, how can anybody seriously claim that people sat around waiting for Normans, Norsemen or whoever to turn up and think of a word for something that had existed aeons previously (and in several cases they themselves had built)?
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Hatty
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Boreades wrote:
Brychan, who gave his name to Bryncheiniog (Brecon).

Brychan appears to have become a Welsh patriarch, credited with a huge number of sons (and daughters) but not considered a saint. He does however bear all the hallmarks of a 'Megalithic saint' and animal tamer, as per the following extracts [my underlinings]:

---------

As a young man, he made a pilgrimage to Rome, where he defeated a ferocious serpent.

Upon his return journey, he settled in Brittany, where he made efforts to evangelise the local population. He eventually moved on to Wales, floating on a stone (probably his portable altar) and landing at Milford Haven.

He first travelled north-east to Llanboidy (Carmarthenshire) where he was denied lodgings by the locals and slept in a cow-shed. At Cilymaellwyd he recived the same treatment and was forced to shelter under a grey stone.

Brynach found a new home at Pont-faen on the River Gwaun but was soon driven away by demons. At Llwyn Henllan on the River Nevern, he tried to build a church, but the locals stole all his wood. Then an angel appeared announcing that this latter place was not for him. So, Brynach moved on to Nevern on the banks of the little River Caman. He introduced agriculture to the people and taught them how to yoke wild stags to the plough and to milk the hinds.

The local king, Clether, was so impressed by Brynach and his rhetoric that he gave up his throne in order to retire to Cerniw (Cornwall) as a Christian hermit. He gave Brynach all his lands and his twenty sons became his first disciples at the monastery which developed around his little church. He also founded the churches of Dinas and Newport (Pembrokeshire), near where he conversed with angels on Carningli.[a hill in the Preseli Mountains near Newport]

Brynach had a fine cow which gave so much milk that it sustained all his monks. It was looked after by his tame wolf.

---------

One of his numerous daughters, Eluned/ Lunet, is another virgin saint with watery (and, by the sound of it, lunar) connections. After spurning the advances of a pagan prince

She would not find peace until her arrival at Slwch Tump an Iron Age hillfort less than a mile from Brecon], where the local lord gave her protection. However, Eluned's pursuer found her. When she ran from him, he chased her down the hill and beheaded her. Her head rolled down the hill and hit a stone; as in the story of Saint Winefride, a healing spring burst from that spot.

The spring was said to have healing and other miraculous properties.
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Hatty
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Another Ramsey place that may be of passing interest is on the Isle of Man. Ramsey, or Rhumsaa in Manx according to Wiki:

It has one of the biggest harbours on the island, and has a prominent derelict pier, called the Queen's Pier. It was formerly one of the main points of communication with Scotland. .... Ramsey is built mostly on sandy ground and has miles of sandy beaches. To the north of Ramsey the beaches run continuously to the north tip of the island.

The pier which was opened in 1886 was designed as a landing point for ships on the Liverpool to River Clyde route and never had the amenities usually associated with seaside piers.

St Maughold, Machall in Gaelic, the island's patron saint, was "a robber chief who was converted to Christianity by Saint Patrick, set adrift in a coracle in which he was conveyed to the Island" and ended up building a church at Ramsey "of no small extent":

The parish church is one of the oldest in the Island, and it is surrounded by a churchyard nearly four acres in extent, said to be one of the largest parish church-yards in the British Islands.


St Maughold Head, at the southern end of Ramsey Bay, is the easternmost point of the Isle of Man




Ramsey Bay, which stretches from the northern point of the Isle of Man down to Maughold Head, is an unusually large bay encompassing 25% of the island's entire length.
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aurelius



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Lovely picture, Hatty;

The name of the town derives from the Old Norse hrams-á, meaning "wild garlic river",[5] More specifically, it refers to the plant known as buckrams or wild garlic, in Latin Allium ursinum.

The Isle of Man has been an important strategic location in conflicts between the Norse rulers of Man and the Isles, and the Scots and English. Smugglers and pirates were also common at many times in Manx history.

Ramsey was the landing place of the Viking warrior Godred Crovan around 1079: he was determined to subjugate the island and make it his kingdom. Two miles inland, on Sky Hill, an important battle was fought; this resulted in several hundred years of Viking rule, influencing the development of the Manx nation and many of the traditions that continue today.

- Wikipedia
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Hatty
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Looking at Manx place names, there isn't any evidence of 'Old Norse' -- the names appear conventionally English with a bit of Irish (the odd balla- this and that) -- so why should Ramsey be an exception?
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aurelius



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Hatty wrote:
Looking at Manx place names, there isn't any evidence of 'Old Norse' -- the names appear conventionally English with a bit of Irish (the odd balla- this and that) -- so why should Ramsey be an exception?


I agree the Manx Gaelic place names are in the majority, three and a half pages in the glossary of Kinvig, R. The Isle of Man: a Social, Cultural and Political History to nearly one page of Norse ones.

I'm guessing that the reason for this is that the Irish were literate and the Vikings not, so the former tended to leave a more permanent mark. However IOM was under the rule of the Norsemen - not just raiding - from 1079 to 1266 when, despite the support of King Haakon of Norway, Man and the Hebridean islands that remained under their control passed to the victorious Alexander III of Scotland.

Among the other names of Norse origin are Snaefell, Laxey, Holmtun (the Norse name for Peel), Surby, Langness and most importantly the Parliament itself, Tynwald.

Henry IV gifted the island to Sir John Stanley whose family governed from the 15th Century onwards, during which fortifications and the Anglicisation of some of the place names (e.g. Cashtal to Castle) would have taken place.
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aurelius



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The etymology of IOM Ramsey is repeated in Kinvig, and Ekwall's English Place Name Elements, the standard work unless there has been a recent re-assessment.
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Mick Harper
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unless there has been a recent re-assessment.

Yes, there has. It's called The History of Britain Revealed and is by M J Harper.
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aurelius



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Mick Harper wrote:
unless there has been a recent re-assessment.

Yes, there has. It's called The History of Britain Revealed and is by M J Harper.


Ha! Which I've read as you know, and is why I often put 'Anglo-Saxon' in inverted commas on this site. Happy to accept that AS=OE=forerunner of 'Middle English' is very dubious, and Beowulf etc.= fakes in the light of your arguments.
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Mick Harper
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Well, actually it wasn't that so much that I meant but the root-and-branch attack on the entire Place Name Industry. Which now I come to think about it, is to be found in these pages here and in the Megalithic Empire.
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Wile E. Coyote


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N R Scott wrote:
Was wondering; is St. Christopher megalithic?

He's the patron saint of travellers and mariners.
He's associated with helping people across rivers.
There are more wall paintings of him in England than of any other saint.

He's also oddly often depicted with the head of a dog (although I don't know where that fits in with things megalithic.)


Mick (why me?) asked me to consider docks/dogs...maybe it is because of my wide experience of dogging.

Scotty is right this is a bit strange. (The St Chris stuff, dog's head, not the dogging.... OK...I am losing the thread, dogging is not as popular as dog walking, but still the ST Chris stuff is probably more unusual) Err....Move on.

Now Dogs must have played an important role in Megalithia, but I am really struggling to just how.

The Patron Saint of Dogs is?

Any guesses? Come on Hats you have written a chapter on this....

You don't know do you?

Aha the Patron Saint is St Rock.....Roch....Rocco..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Roch

One problem, never heard of him. Patron Saint of dogs, we are a nation of dog lovers, we have a proud history of hunting, yet Wiley has not heard a woof , a bark or a yelp...

Dogs feature on Bayeux, in many legends, films (think Lassie err not porn), in the weather dog days.....

There is a timeless myth about a dog falsely accused/suspected of attacking a baby, that runs through the ages.....you know the one....come on... you just don't know that you know.... think Lady and the Tramp ...aha....bow wow wow..... St Roch is also patron saint of the falsely accused.

Scotty is right it's a mystery....

Any dodgy doggy ideas?

Please.
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Mick Harper
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I have just written about St Gelert, half man half dog. [Chapter Five Part 53, Second Dark Age.] Why isn't he the Welsh patron saint of dogs? But generally, Wiley, you are completely correct -- dogs open a whole new chapter. One thought -- in TME we assume the Megalithics started as reindeer herders and yet (I think) dogs are not much used in that traditionally. Nor any of the big herd animals. Did they come in with sheep? Did they literally come in with the sheep?
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Mick Harper
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Just came across this while preparing today's Welsh monastery. Will it help, Wiley?

The main activity on the site dates to the post-Roman period when historical sources indicate that a monastery dedicated to the fifth-century British saint Docco was established at Llandough. The location of the monastery has always been assumed to lie beneath the present church of St Dochwy (Docco) and the recent excavation would seem to confirm this.
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Hatty
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Could Sts Docco and Rocco be one and the same?

Welsh Classical Dictionary entry is convoluted even by Welsh standards

DOCHAU or DOCGWYN, ST.
The saint of Llandochau Fach (Llandough juxta Cardiff) and Llandochau (Llandough near Cowbridge). The monastery at Llandough near Cardiff was at one time one of the three great minsters of south-east Glamorgan. The monastery is frequently mentioned in the Book of Llandaf where we find Docunnus (21 times), Docguinnus (10 times) and Abbas Dochou (once). Also in the ‘Llancarfan Charters’ attached to the Life of St.Cadog, where he is called Docgwinus, Docgwinnus.

In the Life of St.Cadog, where he is called Dochou, Docguinnnus and Doguuinnus, we are told that he was summoned by Cadog to arbitrate, with others, in a dispute between Arthur and Cadog which took place at Tref Redynog [Tredunnock, Gwent]. As a reward for his services Cadog gave Llanddyfrwyr [-yn-Edeligion] to Doguuinnus. The same place had earlier(?) been given to St.Cybi (q.v.).

Dochau was also the founder of the monastery of Docco in Cornwall, later called St.Kew. This was visited by St.Samson and we gather from the Life of St.Samson (§§45, 46) that Dochau must have left there before Samson's arrival as it was said not to be up to its original vigour. Docco was called Landoho (1185, 1300, 1302), Lan-hoho, Landohou, Llannow since 1331, Sancti Doquinni (1400).

Dochow is given in the oldest Welsh calendar (13th century) as commemorated on February 15. Nicholas Roscarrock (c.1600) speaks of St.Dawe, “a vertuous preist and eremit ... lived ... in the parish of S.Kewe and they holde by tradition that he was brother of S.Kewe”. He goes on to say that S.Dawe was esteemed a saint in Wales and that his feast there was on February 15 as it was also in Cornwall. “But they call him Dochotwyr or Dogotwy”.

Dogotwy is evidently the Welsh saint Dochdwy (q.v.) who is probably not the same as Dochau. The displacement of Dochau by St.Kew in the parish now called St.Kew appears to have been gradual. In 1373 we find mention of “the cemetery of the church Lannou and the chapel of St.Kewe in the same”. In 1578 the parish was called Lannow alias Kew and there is still a place called Lannow in the parish, “Lanowe, a farm about a mile from St. Kewe church”


St Kew is pertinent since according to etymonline, Kew is the English equivalent of French quai i.e. dock, quay.
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aurelius



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Arthur - one man and his Cadog.
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