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Megalithic Saints (British History)
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Hatty
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St Nectan, he of the Glen near Tintagel, has turned up again, this time on Stoke Down in South Devon. The church there is dedicated to this obscure, apparently Cornish, saint

The glory of Stoke is the parish church, dedicated to the 5th century Celtic saint, St Nectan. The strikingly tall tower of St Nectan's (128 feet) has given the church the moniker, "Cathedral of North Devon". The tower is visible for miles in all directions, and is used as a landmark by ships at sea.

Another reason this 'strikingly tall tower' is of interest is that it's visible from Burgh Island to the south-east and nearer, from the mouth of the River Erme.

Nectan appears to be cognate with 'Knucker', i.e. worm, dragon, which suggests a mining, perhaps tin-mining, connection. The Knuckers are usually associated with Sussex which was an important mining centre, for iron ore not tin.

Be that as it may, it certainly wasn't a congregation-friendly church:

In the mediaval period St Nectans was the church for the monks of Hartland Abbey, who walked the mile uphill to the church from the abbey itself for services 6 times every day and night.

Stoke church is close to a well above a spring with the usual foundation legend

The legend of St Nectan tells that he was on a journey north from Cornwall when he was set upon by bandits. The bandits beheaded the saint, whereupon he picked up his severed head and carried it to this spot. When he set the head down, water sprang forth from the ground.
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Mick Harper
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To what extent did St David actually exist? Either as a person or as an important person. Here is some more Saints of Wales with underlinings and comments

The low-lying marshy site of St David’s Cathedral is typical of an early monastery. Its nucleus was probably around the transept of the present cathedral. Lower down the whole of the river would have flooded the site. Excavation has provided no evidence of a pre-Norman church or churches. .... All the archaeological finds have been of High Medieval dates contemporary with the present cathedral.

So it would seem that the cathedral has no connection with David and was built 600 years later. And yet there is a wealth of historical 'evidence' trying to show that the cathedral/monastery goes back to his time:

The monastery was destroyed many times. Anonymous raiders attacked St David’s in 810 and 907 while Vikings raided the site in 988. .... Vikings again attacked St David’s in 999 (killing the bishop), then the Saxons raided it in 1011. In 1022 and 1073 there were raids by two different pirates named Eilaf. In a raid of 1080, Bishop Abraham was killed. In 1091 ‘the men of the Isles’ destroyed Menevia (which was what it was called in those days).

The two Eilafs are either a sign of authenticity (who'd make that up?) or a sign of bogusness (careless work), but the main point is that the site of the cathedral/monastery has a violent and lengthy history but no archaeology. This cannot be so.

Despite the cathedral’s repeated destruction by the tenth century David was presented as a national figure; verses in the prophetic poem Armes Prydein declare him to be the chief intercessor of the saints of Wales. The Normans took over both the site and the cult of St David and since David was seen as a focus for resistance against the Normans they invested heavily in the site. David’s cult was promoted in the eleventh and twelfth centuries as Menevia struggled to achieve supremacy among Welsh bishoprics.

This seems to be the usual Norman realpolitik. Inventing David as both a national hero and a Norman protege. Notice that Pembroke is England-beyond-Wales ie needed by the Normans for their Irish expeditions. Wales itself was of little interest and could be left to 'the supremacy of the St Davids bishopric'..
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aurelius



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Knuckers are usually associated with Sussex which was an important mining centre, for iron ore not tin.


Yes I remember coming across Knuckers Hole - near where my grandparents are buried in Lyminster:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILJUmhIODYk
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Mick Harper
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The Normans continued their work. Here is the Norman-Welsh Gerald's contribution.

It seems to have been Gerald of Wales writing in the twelfth century who located David’s birthplace at St Non’s Chapel on the coast a mile south of St David’s

And to get things moving along:

In response to a new demand for physical relics, David’s body was ‘discovered’ as the result of a dream by the Prior of Ewenny in Glamorgan and the new shrine was constructed in 1275.

Ewenny Church (white church?) is on a ‘Roman’ road (now the A48) and would seem to be the old England - South Wales - Ireland route.



and is dedicated to our very own St Michael & All Angels. This is just the start of a whole host of Megalithic connections.
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Mick Harper
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Here are our latest 'twin' islands. Bardsey and Ramsey:





The two questions that absolutely need answering:
1. Is it natural or un-natural to have these little islets always popping up at the extremities of landmasses
2. Is it natural or un-natural for saints-with-megalithic-connections always to be occupying these 'extreme islets'.
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aurelius



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The two questions that absolutely need answering:
1. Is it natural or un-natural to have these little islets always popping up at the extremities of landmasses
2. Is it natural or un-natural for saints-with-megalithic-connections always to be occupying these 'extreme islets'.


Even if we confine ourselves to Western Europe there are islets off nearly every extremity and those I have checked so far (Channel Islands, if the Cherbourg Peninsula is considered an extremity), Ushant (off the French coast near Brest), Cape Clear Island (off SW coast of Ireland), the Orkneys -- all have a story about a hermitage.

Assuming the notion of Celtic Christianity, Insular Christianity, is wrong (nothing more insular than a remote island despite hermitages not being confined to islands) - and should be replaced by the hypothesis of a Megalithic trading network, I would assume that their outposts on these islands were strategic, and therefore 'unnatural'. What is more unnatural than Bardsey being the resting place, as the legend goes, of 20,000 Saints - a burial ground out of all proportion to the size of the island...

On the other hand, unless analysis of an island geology be proved otherwise, I would assume the majority are 'natural'. If the sea level rises, or a land mass sinks, the nearest hills have a strong chance of becoming islands. If Cornwall sank, Bodmin Moor would eventually become an island.

Where there are long ranges at angles to the coast (South West of Ireland) you would get islands and fingers of land.

Similarly if a ridge of mountains parallel, but open at both ends to the sea sinks then it should become a chain of islands parallel with the new coast (e.g. Croatia). If it was only open at one end you would get a peninsula parallel to the new mainland.
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Hatty
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Justinian, from 'a noble Breton family', was the hermit of Ramsey Island.

Legend has it that he was eventually murdered by some disgruntled servants or monks fed up with his strict regime, it is said by beheading him. Apparently he picked up his head and crossed Ramsey Sound walking on the water carrying his head in his arms and his body was buried in the small ruined chapel which still stands on the mainland at St Justinian's, immediately opposite his island home.

David's bones are said to be contained in a wooden chest in St David's Cathedral together with those of St Justinian (or Stinan or St Iestyn). The bones when carbon-dated were found to be thirteenth- rather than sixth-century.
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Mick Harper
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And of an adolescent child. These people are shameless!
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aurelius



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Mick Harper wrote:
And of an adolescent child. These people are shameless!


Please explain this reference, thanks.
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aurelius



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This is article from the Llanelli Star of 31st January 1914:

Members of the Education Committee met for their monthly meeting. The Clerk (Mr. Ifor Watkins) reported that the Welsh department of the Board of Education had forwarded a specimen copy of a booklet which they were issuing for use in connection with. celebrations of St. David's Day -

Ald. Nathan Griffiths: Did St. David exist at all ?

Councillor R. P. Thomas (jocularly): Myth.

Ald. Bramwell Jones (referring to the booklet): They are trying to establish his birth in this.

Aid. Griffiths: What do you say Mr. Chairman ? You are a member of the Cymrodorion Society.

The Chairman: I think it is well known that there was some such person in history.

Councillor R. P. Thomas: Born at Machynis (laughter).

Ald. Griffiths: Which of them walked across the sea to Ireland, St. Patrick or St. David ? (laughter). They say that St. Patrick was a Welshman, and that St. David was an Irishman (more laughter).

The Chairman: I think there was an historical figure in Welsh history who can be fixed upon as the prototype of the St. David we have.

Ald. Griffiths: What was he, Roman Catholic or Church of England ?

The Chairman: He belonged to the Celtic Church.

It was decided not to order any booklets...
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Mick Harper
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Mick Harper wrote:
And of an adolescent child. These people are shameless!

Please explain this reference, thanks.

Somebody in the thirteenth century put some bones into a box (from the carbon dating) and claimed they were St David. They did not even bother to makes the bones (which after all could be expected to be viewed from time to time) that of an adult.

Your 1914 report is interesting in that they were all presumably "chapel". That is hostile to Catholic claims and dogma. However their lack of sympathy for a Welsh/Celtic David is a little surprising. Perhaps they were socialists and atheists.
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Boreades


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Perhaps they were Freemasons or Druids?

The oldest Freemasons Lodge in Llanelli is St.Elli, lodge number 3942. It takes its name from Llanelly Church.

The church is dedicated to St. Ellyw, or Elli, a daughter or granddaughter of Brychan, who gave his name to Bryncheiniog (Brecon). By some it is said to be dedicated to St. Elli, a Saint of the 6th century (500-550), the second Abbot of Llancarfan.

The ancient churchyard, within the magnificent circle of venerable yews, indicates that it was a sacred spot in pre-Christian times.

http://thomasgenweb.com/llanelly_church.html

http://stelli3942.org/
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aurelius



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Boreades wrote:
Perhaps they were Freemasons or Druids?


I left out the last comment, which did not seem particularly germane to St David and the thread. It was:

Ald. Bramwell Jones: Oh, I say he was an I-L-Peer" straightaway (laughter).

Now I'm not qualified as a political historian so I struggle to get the joke, but this dialogue does fall within the period when there was the Independent Labour Party, an affiliate of the Labour Party. The ILP was radically pacifist, activist and evangelical -

While this inspirational presentation of socialism as a humanitarian necessity made the party accessible as a sort of secular religion or a means for the practical implementation of Christian principles in daily life, it bore with it the great weakness of being non-analytical and thus comparatively shallow.


and took the Labour Party to task -

Still, the relationship between the ILP and the Labour Party was characterised by conflict. Many ILP members viewed the Labour Party as being too timid and moderate in their attempts at social reform, detached as it was from the socialist objective during its first years. Consequently, in 1912 came a split in which many ILP branches and a few leading figures, including Leonard Hall and Russell Smart, chose to amalgamate with the SDF of H. M. Hyndman in 1912 to found the British Socialist Party.


So this may either be an attempt to ridicule St David by Alderman Bramwell Jones, or to emphasise Welsh radicalism.
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aurelius



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Mick Harper wrote:
The perpetual notion that -ey is Viking for island is absurd. Unless the Vikings conquered Jersey, Guernsey, Alderney and all the -eys in the Thames Valley.


To which we can add Sheppey, Thorney, Selsey (once presumably cut off from Sussex), Anglesey, Orkney, maybe Lundy, which commonly indicate that -ey implied 'island of..'

There is even a Bardsey in West Yorkshire - Berdesei - which the local community forum explains

At this time the settlement was recorded as Berdesei and was owned by the King. This place name is derived from Old English elements meaning island-like hill, enclosure or high place hill. Bardsey Hill is the most likely area to fit this description.


So is -ey old Norse or 'Anglo Saxon'/Old English?

Nearly all the Swedish island end in umlaut 'o'. Nearly all the Norwegian Islands end in -oy ('o' with a diagonal line through). Some Danish islands end in 'o' with the diagonal and Iceland, ruled by Denmark 1814-1944 but originally settled by Norwegians, also has some offshore islands with names ending in -ey.

Other islandic (sorry, invented that) names ending in -holm are almost certainly Scandinavian (Bjornholm is off the coast of Sweden).

But if orthodoxy is reliable in asserting that the Welsh coast and the South West of England including the Somerset and Gloucestershire 'coasts', though regularly raided by the Vikings, had little or no settlement by them, why have these Norse names persisted in use, the invaders having been repelled?

If you are ready to rubbish any of this I've a bit more coming in the next post so please hold your fire....
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aurelius



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Who named the islands, continued.

There is an island off the North German (Saxony) coast called Norderney,

Of the seven East Frisian islands, Norderney is the youngest. The island has only existed in its present form since the middle of the 16th century, being the eastern remnant of the larger island Buise. The larger island of Buise was split into two parts during the Grote Mandrenke flood of 1362, the eastern half at first being called Ostrende. What was left of Buise shrunk in size over the years and finally disappeared into the North Sea during the St. Peter's Flood of 1651. Ostrende, on the other hand, grew in size, and is noted in a 1550 census as "Norder neys Oog" (Northern New Island.


Now this seems to be derived from the Frisian language. Old Frisian is said to be a West Germanic language, spoken between the 8th and 16th centuries. Frisian is also considered the closest language to English other than Scots (Wikipedia). Germany has few islands and the few that there are are termed 'insel' or 'Werder'.

Does this give us a clue as to why there are so many islands off the English and Welsh coasts ending in -ey? If it was not the Vikings and as the Anglo-Saxons never conquered Wales is it further, though weak proof of Mick's HOBR thesis that the pre-Anglo Saxon language in England was non-Celtic?

Ruling out the Romans and the Welsh, who of course had or have used their own language for 'isle', is there another candidate for the culture that named the 'eys'?

The only one I could think of were the Normans, who were of course originally from Scandinavia and were properly settled in Northern France and the Channel Islands by the 11th Century. Although it suited them to learn French, did they use old Scandinavian words to name offshore British islands after they invaded Britain? In that sense the ending 'ey' is Viking, after all.
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