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Ishmael wrote: | Wile E. Coyote wrote: | St George is another popular 'dragon-slayer', apparently a later and more obviously Christian version of Michael. In his pre-Christian incarnation he was a minor fertility god probably originating from Georgia in the Caucasus as his name suggests . |
I'm convinced that all of this is wrong. St. George was a real historical figure. He is more real than Jesus Christ.
St. George = Genghis Khan = Henry V = Constantine the Great = ... |
Could you explain for those more slow-witted than yourself how you arrived at this theory, please?
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Ishmael
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In: Toronto
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aurelius wrote: | Could you explain for those more slow-witted than yourself how you arrived at this theory, please? |
I'm working on it. There's a hidden thread on this site where I've been posting some of my argument in scattered form. I have vastly more evidence than I've been able to share even there but the scope is beyond even what I can grasp.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
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In: London
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but the scope is beyond even what I can grasp |
You're more slow-witted than yourself, eh? I know the feeling.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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Mick Harper wrote: | Michaelmas is the 29th of September. A quarter day in the Christian calendar and a solstice day in the Megalithic one. Perhaps you and Mr Google might work out what's going on when things are being transferred for no obvious reason instead of bitching at one another. |
Mr Google (like common era historians) has a fixed notion of linear time, whereas Wiley's like that of the church is multiple and flexible.
I am confident that the church has it right.
Sadly you won't be convinced.
Still.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
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In: London
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Honestly, I will. If only you'd tell me of what.
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Boreades
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In: finity and beyond
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Hatty wrote: | This is true of all the 'Megalithic' saints. James' legend says he arrived in Spain in a rudderless boat which is identical to the 'Celtic' saints who routinely crossed over from Ireland in unoared coracles, millstones, et al. implying a mastery of the wind and waves beyond the ken of the rest of us. The name Compostela, 'field of stars', suggests 'steering by the stars' and astronomical observation, "campo" being a wide flat area a la Salisbury Plain. |
Hattie, did you ever find why Santiago de Compostela? Did that have megalithic significance, or was it just a place the Catholic church later chose to set up a pilgrim shrine/shop? (Buy your holy souvenirs here, every shin bone guaranteed a genuine holy relic)
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Ishmael
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In: Toronto
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Mick Harper wrote: | but the scope is beyond even what I can grasp |
You're more slow-witted than yourself, eh? I know the feeling. |
That was sloppy phrasing on my part.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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According to legend Dunstan nailed a horseshoe to the devil, who agreed to never enter a house with a horseshoe above the door if Dunstan removed the one from his hoof.
Ever wondered why?
It's a horseshoe arch.
This (err) nails it the Dunstan (Dark stone) cult is linked to horseshoe arches. Lucky (shining) horseshoe.
Gold, Silver and horseshoe arches.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
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In: London
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Why didn't I think of that? Why didn't I understand that?
PS What's the blind connection? As in "Oy, ref, why don't you eff off back to St Dunstan's."
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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Mick Harper wrote: | Why didn't I think of that? Why didn't I understand that?
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It is really just a wee snippet from a Wiley trail.
When we were discussing Thomas Becket, I got left way behind.
So I was thinking about, err, how to think about the Becket cult, and was wondering which trail to take, and decided to ask the question, why did the pilgrimage to Canterbury change from Augustine cult, to Dunstan cult to Becket...... ?
Did they build/pilgrim over?
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
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In: London
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I didn't see that one coming! That's a humorous reference back to the St Dunstans' School for the Blind which I am now satisfied is an entirely accidental connection. As is the fact that my dad wanted me to go to St Dunstan's School, Catford. As is the fact that he was born within chucking out range of the Thomas à Becket pub on the Old Kent Road, where Canterbury pilgrims used to congregate. I promise to be more en point from now on. But remember, for me, it's personal.
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Hatty
Site Admin
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In: Berkshire
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Cnut 'the Holy' = Canute IV of Denmark (1042-86), saint/ martyr and patron saint of Denmark since 1101. He had 'designs on the English throne' which were cut short as according to legend (in the shape of 'Elnoth of Canterbury') he was killed kneeling in St Alban church in Odense by a lance thrust to the side |
Odense is the main city of Funen (the island where people keep discovering gold hoards) though nothing very exciting happened in its history, apart of course from Canute IV being murdered by unruly peasants in St Alban's Priory on 10 July 1086, if Aelnoth is to be believed. Although Aelnoth is supposed to have been the then Archbishop of Canterbury, he is strangely absent from the historical record
Other than his origins in Canterbury, little is known about the life of Ælnoth, with even the dates of his arrival in Denmark and when he wrote the 'Life and Passion of St Canute' being uncertain.
While he is listed in Jean Mabillon's Lives of the Benedictine Saints and in the Acta Sanctorum, there is no contemporary or later evidence of a cult being paid to him at Canterbury or elsewhere. |
Hard to ignore the Becketian whiff of Canute the Holy's murder -- not only on account of the link with Canterbury but also with 'our' Alban
Wile E. Coyote wrote: | Hatty wrote: | Alban was sheltering Amphibalus, a cleric, and when soldiers came to arrest him Alban was taken in his stead because he'd disguised himself in Amphibalus's cloak.
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Yes this is the bit where Becket, who had previously engaged in the manner of a courtier ie he chased the privilege and status of his chancellorship and marked it with sumptuous ostentation etc suddenly goes all archbishopery and dons the horsehair. |
St Alban's Priory is said to be the predecessor of Odense's cathedral, built of Gothic Brick popular in the 13th century, and dedicated to St Canute
St. Canute's Abbey, Odense (Danish: Skt Knuds Kloster), a Benedictine monastery, was built to support the pilgrimage centre for the relics of the royal Danish martyr Saint Canute (died 1086), and was the successor to the priory of St. Mary and St. Alban, Denmark's earliest monastic house. Located in Odense, it was the island of Funen's most important medieval religious institution. |
The pilgrim trade certainly kept the place afloat but no archaeology appears to have survived for the earlier priory of St Alban's. Why not?
The Church of St. Canute, which was at first of wood, and connected with the great Benedictine monastery of the same name, was burnt down more than once, and the present fine building was not begun until the time of Bishop Gisico (1287?-1300?). |
When no trace of a presumed church is found, archaeologists can only speculate using such formulas as 'It must have been made of wood'.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
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In: London
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he was killed kneeling in St Alban church in Odense by a lance thrust to the side |
Yes, Beckettian overtones but this specifically harks back also to the Spear of Destiny, the one Longinus stabbed Jesus with to hasten his death so it didn't overlap with the Sabbath. Though I think it is true that it was routine practice because Roman soldiers didn't want to have to hang around guarding the living dying too long. They would also pull down on the diaphragm to hasten suffocation.
While on such a grisly subject, the crown of thorns puts in mind the greenery placed among the woodchips so that people being burned at the stake would die quickly from smoke inhalation rather than slowly from burning flesh. I might add that modern hanging is instantaneous whereas it used to be a quite gruesomely drawn out procedure. And just to complete this pretty picture, the most humane method of dispatching people is probably to let them think they are going for a shower and then pumping in Zyklon-B. How advanced we are getting.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
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In: London
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But returning to the middle ages, this is a standard story of setting up a pilgrimage site. We know when it all kicked off and who kicked it off
the present fine building was not begun until the time of Bishop Gisico (1287?-1300?). St. Canute's Abbey, Odense (Danish: Skt Knuds Kloster), a Benedictine monastery, was built to support the pilgrimage centre for ... |
supporting the church apparatus across the island of Funen
Located in Odense, it was the island of Funen's most important medieval religious institution. |
As with all such operations there was a choice between offering a broad spectrum of all-purpose relics (nail from the true cross, Catherine's hymen etc) or something local. Islanders being insular, better the latter. Tricky. Islands being insular not much happens on them. Quick letter to the specialists and back comes Elnoth of Canterbury with the news that Canute IV (no less) was actually martyred on Funen. ("We weren't expecting that, real turn up for the books, bit of an honour to be honest. Sad of course, we wouldn't want to be trading on someone else's misfortune, but it's what he would have wanted.") In fact, if you go and look, his relics will be under the priory of ... um ... St Mary. Bit generic... St Mary and St Alban. He's about the right date. Plus maybe attract some pilgrim trade from England. Relics and invoice enclosed.
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Hatty
Site Admin
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In: Berkshire
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Funen island is also host to the only Viking ship burial in Denmark. It's where King Ladby was buried, except that his body was carried off. Never mind, the plunderers left behind the rest.
Archaeologists have ascertained that not long after his burial the grave was plundered and the chieftain's body was removed. But what was left behind is still utterly intriguing. All the wooden planks from the ship decayed long ago, but left a perfect imprint of the hull moulded into the earth, along with 2000 rivets, an anchor, iron curls from the ship’s dragon-headed prow, and countless bones of sacrificed dogs and horses
Number of grave goods were found in the burial site, including weapons, riding gear, utensils, textiles, tools, and even board games |
Difficult to date without a body but one can always resort to conjecture based on stylistic comparisons
It has been dated to the early 10th century, based on a gilded link of bronze for a dog-harness, decorated in the Jelling style, found there |
Talking of animals, horse skeletons were also present, leading to some quite animated debate
Mikkelsen and Rosenberg discovered eleven horse skeletons in the ship’s grave, at the bow of the ship. From looking at illustrations of the ship on the Bayeux Tapestry—a cloth from the eleventh century depicting seventy-five events leading up to the Norman conquest of England––some scholars have concluded that Viking war vessels such as the Ladby Ship were used to transport horses. Some scholars have taken a skeptical attitude towards the claim that the ship was used to transport horses. For example, according to Stephen Morillo, it would have been impossible to transport horses on the ship. Danish sea scouts constructed a replica of the ship to test the hypothesis that the ship was used for carrying horses |
Yes but what use would horses be? Funen is a small island, it has no history of horse-riding nor of invasion (pre Second World War).
Assuming enough has survived, wood samples can potentially provide scientific dating
It was initially impossible to tell if the wood came from the ship or not, and if so which part.... Because wood lying to the west was “quite intact,†Rosenberg concluded that it came from various layers of wood that made up the structure of the ship, perhaps planks from the deck layer: “It is therefore to be expected that there is a section of an undisturbed burial-chamber under the wooden covering and several large pieces of iron appear here, sticking up through the layer of woodâ€. These and other discoveries of wood deposits allowed them to draw conclusions regarding the construction and structure of the ship....They expected to find undisturbed parts of the grave below the deck layer. Below this layer of wood, between 11 and 13 meters, they found threads of a fibrous organic material that did not seem to be woven, but which could not be positively identified. No wood survived along the eastern part of the ship.
It is unclear how much of the ship’s planks survived the excavation itself. |
Maybe not a 1,000-year old Viking ship. Still the Ladby Museum with a replica ship is a thriving tourist destination.
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