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The Bow and Arrow in the Americas: Why So Late? (NEW CONCEPTS)
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Grant



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"Why did the b-and-a never arrive in Australia"


Maybe it was just too complicated for the aborigines. Much easier just to throw a stick at something.
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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I thought of that. Since b-and-a's are around in New Guinea (aren't they?) and New Guineans are roughly the same intellectually as Australian aborigines (aren't they?) then we might say that it requires a certain amount of pressure from outside to make the change, and that pressure wasn't available by the time we get to Australia. This is a slightly different argument from simple exposure.
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DPCrisp


In: Bedfordshire
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PNG has quite a few trees. How does the Australian toolkit vary between forest and desert?

Is the bownarrow clearly superior to the spear in the same way that the wheel is clearly superior to the travois/sled.
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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Robin Hood and co. were always shooting arrows into the greenwood.

The aborigines had dogs, presumably from the outset. Not necessarily the best hunting method but sufficient to bring down a kangaroo or two. Inuit used harpoons, but ice isn't suitable for a pack of huskies so bow-and-arrow would be superfluous?
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nemesis8


In: byrhfunt
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This is from Wiki

Some woomeras, especially those used in the Central and Western Australian deserts, were multi-purpose tools. Often shaped like long narrow bowls, they could be used for carrying water-soaked vegetable matter (which could later be sucked for its moisture, but wouldn't spill) as well as small food items such as little lizards or seeds. Many woomeras had a sharp stone cutting edge attached to the end of the handle with black gum from the triodia plant. This sharp tool had many uses .... and was commonly used for cutting up game or other food, cutting wood, and so on.

The woomera could be used as a shield for protection against spears and boomerangs. Some boomerangs were deliberately made with a hook at one end designed to catch onto the edge of a woomera or shield, which then caused the boomerang to swivel around and hit the enemy
.

You see guys its the original swiss army knive. Multi functioned easy to carry round. Aborigine children played with bows and arrows.
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berniegreen



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nemesis8 wrote:
Aborigine children played with bows and arrows.

I didn't know that. How do you know that? I will ask.

With ref to Hatty's comment. Dingoes, they say, were never trained as hunting dogs. Commonly accepted view is that they were imported maybe about 3000 years ago. If true then maybe it was some trade deal with visiting Melanesians.
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berniegreen



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Grant wrote:
"Why did the b-and-a never arrive in Australia"


Maybe it was just too complicated for the aborigines. Much easier just to throw a stick at something.

Don't fall for that hoary old myth, Grant. Indigenous culture was/is very rich and complex. For example they knew about gardening (at least in the north) from contact with Torres Strait Islanders and visiting Melanesians but chose to remain hunter gatherers. They invented a fire-based method of land-clearing and re-generationwhich is remarkably similar to that which is now practised "scientifically" prevent bush fires. They knew about fish trapping and fish farming. Smart fellows.
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berniegreen



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Mick Harper wrote:
All wood is sap-filled, has great flexibilty, light weight and strength. You can make bows and arrows out of any wood, but of course further development shows some wood is better than other wood.

Well yes but some woods are much sappier than others and different woods dry out in different ways. I'm not sure that you can make bows from anything. I wouldn't like to try using Wattle - far too quick to dry out and become uselessly brittle.

So the natives were fully cognisant of everything that leads to bows-and-arrows including wood selection and woodworking skills...but didn't.

How do you know that?

Clearly, since boomerangs, (non-ferrous) spears and throwing sticks are markedly inferior to bows-and-arrows,

Not sure that that is a correct statement - at least with respect to hunting.

we are now confirmed that native Australians never came into contact with bows-and-arrows.

It is possible of course that those in the far north knew about them from contact with visiting Melanesians but the rest of the country, no. I agree with you.

So we should make the preliminary assumption that "mankind is not successful primarily because of his adaptation skills" but what he is exposed to.

Isn't that merely thee other side of the coin?

Clearly it doesn't apply to Australia if your arguments are correct since you say it was for quite different reasons. However if you now concentrate on your own area-of-knowledge and ask "Why did the b-and-a never arrive in Australia" you may be of help.

Yes, I had thought about this further after having posted yesterday and I came to the conclusion that Dan is probably right. The motivation for the development of new weapons technology is far more likely to be inter-group conflict than it is hunting. That would fit well with Australia. Inter-clan and inter-tribe conflict was very low in Australian aboriginal society principally because of the large amount of space and the relatively low population density.
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berniegreen



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Clearly, since boomerangs, (non-ferrous) spears and throwing sticks are markedly inferior to bows-and-arrows,
Not sure that that is a correct statement - at least with respect to hunting.

Have located some testimony from a Mr E. Wilmot that the Woomera and spear was the fastest hunting weapon ever invented prior to the invention of the repeater rifle.

Cannot vouchsafe the credentials of said Wilmot or the provenance of his findings.

But if he is right then the use of bow and arrow would have been a step backwards for the Kooris. And it follows that the Australians had already made a technology leap that the rest of the world never caught up with until modern firearms.
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nemesis8


In: byrhfunt
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N8 reckons, that once you disentangle the archaelogical inference concerning arrowheads/atlatl points and borrow Mr Formenkos specs this whole thread is simply a case of "what is is, what was"
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berniegreen



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More on things Australian:-

Have spoken to some aboriginal persons about the bow and arrow and they all confirm that it was never a part of traditional culture and on Nemesis' comment about children using them they all laughed merrily and said words to the effect that they were just playing "cowboys and indians" that they had got off the tele.

On dingoes there are many sites that people can visit for themselves if they wish. It seems that my earlier statement that they arrived 3000 years ago was incorrect by a thousand years or so. But either way they were a late import.

On Hatty's point about hunting kangaroos I can personally vouchsafe that my own dog (a Maremma bitch) loves chasing them but has never got anywhere near one yet and furthermore I wouldn't really fancy her chances against an adult Eastern Grey (the common breed around here) if she ever did manage to catch one.

So a final thought, harking back to Buck's initial query, how come that the rest of the world never managed to invent a woomera-like device?
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nemesis8


In: byrhfunt
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You should try asking your friends about the aborigines on the Torres Strait Islands.

Not that this matters. It is clear to me that the Aborigines had the technology, they simply did not view the bow and arrow as a weapon of first choice.

The woomera is similar to/same as the atlatl, see for example http://www.donsmaps.com/atlatl.html

so I am struggling with your last comment.

If you read my last post all will become clear.
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berniegreen



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Thanks for that, N8. The atlatl stuff had just zipped over my head previously.

Back to bs and as -

a) The Torres Strait Islander (TSI) people are Melanesians and bs and as are definitely a part of Melanesian culture. So if you saw refs to TSI children playing with them - no problems.

---There is an interesting definitional issue here. In Australian official-speak "Aboriginals and Torres Strait Islanders" is the terminology used to reference all indigenous Australians so as to distinguish between the two racial groups. Thus, we are now all so brainwashed that none of us would think of TSI people as being "aboriginal" although of course they are - at least with a small a.-----

b) For the Koori peoples it leaves us with two possibilities. Either they never knew about bs and as despite plenty of cultural contact with Melanesians (unlikely), or they knew about them but made a decision to stay with the woomera. Thus I concur with your conclusion.
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Buck Trawicky



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from Buck: Hello, you-all, regarding the bow-and-arrow: I've gotta print out all this guff of yours, and think on it.

For my part, since I started all this, I'm obliged to check out the professional publications (mainly anthropological), and consult with my local university's mavins (and reform my university, in the by-going), and consult with a South American anthropologist friend of mine. And then post back.

I never intended to get into the matter of Australia; about which I worry, including retroactively. (It never had an Ice Age, which turns out to be a blessing, though not at the time.)

Nor did I intend to bring up the bola, but it appears that it's now on the table.
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nemesis8


In: byrhfunt
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Good hunting, Buck. N8 reckons your decision to stael a viper and head back to Caprica, is positively perverse....But maybe you are the chosen one.....
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