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Who birthed the Renaissance? (NEW CONCEPTS)
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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Very well, let us answer these points (I do like defending orthodoxy).

why do the labs request a suggested or hoped-for date at all (if not to rule-out wildly incompatible test results)

We only have Fomenko's word that they do -- last night the applicants volunteered it quite unprompted -- but there may be a technical reason for it even so. It may, for example, permit short cuts in the testing. It does not on the face of things seem suspicious unless the whole thing is a ramp. And what do they do if the applicants themselves haven't a clue?

why are there no control samples

What would a control sample be in this context? Unless it as per (4) below I can't quite fathom this one.

why no double-blind testing;

Double blind testing would be available if (1) were addressed but otherwise seems irrelelevant since it is a matter of reading off a figure from a thingy. Does this require protecting from bias? Unless you are advocating back-up in-house testers, Chinese walls, lie detector tests and so on. I know these things are important to us and our kind but it's all very much a cottage industry.

why only one lab?

On really important jobbies (eg the Turin Shroud) samples are sent to more than one lab but for workaday samples (eg BBC programmes) such extravagance would seem unwarranted. This is, after all, very routine for everybody involved. How often does the NYPD send fingerprints to Quantico? Only once in all the years I have been watching Law and Order, so I know what I'm talking about.

Fomenko does not say that the labs always return the answer sought. Of course not. Now even that would look strange to everyone.

But how do they know which ones to falsify and which ones not? "OK, everybody, it's annual audit time, so send out a few surprise findings so people won't know we're just sending back what's on the label with a plus and minus."
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N R Scott


In: Middlesbrough
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N R Scott wrote:
Or Herny VIII and his six wives??

The woman second from the left in the painting is pulling on a glove - she appears to have an extra finger.
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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Are you referring to the 'fact' that Anne Boleyn was supposed to have had six fingers on one hand?
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N R Scott


In: Middlesbrough
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Mick Harper wrote:
Are you referring to the 'fact' that Anne Boleyn was supposed to have had six fingers on one hand?

Yep. Like Ishmael I have my doubts about the official Henry the 8th narrative. That extra finger in the painting looks pretty deliberate to me.

In the following image (with Henry/the fool popping out from behind a curtain) there's a maze in the background (I think). Is it supposed to imply that it's at Hampton Court?

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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Mick Harper wrote:
why do the labs request a suggested or hoped-for date at all (if not to rule-out wildly incompatible test results)

...It may, for example, permit short cuts in the testing.

The "short-cut" I have suggested is the ruling out of wildly incompatible test-results. If you get two or three uncomfortable results, you keep testing until you get two or three that approach the expected values. If your first tests get numbers close to the mark, no need for further testing.

And what do they do if the applicants themselves haven't a clue?

I believe Fomenko's words were something to the effect that most labs will refuse to test a sample without it being labeled with a proposed date. If that is the case, most labs will refuse to date a sample without the researchers at least going so far as to have a guess (and thus staking their own reputations on a number).

What would a control sample be in this context?

A control sample would be physically indistinguishable from the real sample (same size; same type of material) but would be from a known period (ie. recent or previously tested). If the lab erroneously dates the control, the results for the true sample are invalidated.

Double blind testing would be available if (1) were addressed but otherwise seems irrelevant since it is a matter of reading off a figure from a thingy.

You send three samples to three labs. Two labs have a genuine sample among their three pieces. One lab has no genuine article. No one knows who doesn't have the real sample. No one has any idea of the dates expected.

Now show me the results. That, after all, is supposed to be how science is done. If it's not being done this way, there must be a motive.

On really important jobbies (eg the Turin Shroud) samples are sent to more than one lab

Are you certain that the three labs involved operated in isolation?

I remember reading about the shroud case. Apparently, when the reporters assembled for the press conference on the results, all suspense was eliminated, for the date had already been written on a blackboard at the front of the room. 1260-1390

But that story now seems odd. If there were multiple labs, surely they would not have all arrived at this result. How did they agree on the range. Did they put the earliest date obtained at any lab at one end of the range and the most-recent date obtained at any one lab at the opposite end? What if one lab had obtained this wide range and the other labs had it narrowed down to a single decade on which they both agreed? What date then would have been written on the blackboard? There was no disagreement? Really?

Fascinating stuff this radiocarbon.

How often does the NYPD send fingerprints to Quantico? Only once in all the years I have been watching Law and Order, so I know what I'm talking about.

Yes. And that is why police lab results ought not to be admissible as evidence in court. There have been a great many cases of willful fraud. Greater are the number of bad results obtained through improper procedures. Infinite are the useless findings based on flawed theory and methodology.

Police may be permitted the use of a single lab to produce leads and clues but such results have no place in an Applied Epistemology court room.

Fomenko does not say that the labs always return the answer sought..


But how do they know which ones to falsify and which ones not?


Not even Fomenko is charging falsification. What he alleges is that the methodology is so deeply flawed that labs can't work blind. Their results often require some shepherding.

Fomenko also critiques the "calibration" of radio-carbon dating and this critique is even more powerful, as the system is only so good as is its calibration.

Something quite fascinating is this: Fomenko charges that the chronology of the New World is actually reasonably accurate (for the past 2000 years at least). The reason is because the calibration in the new world could be tied to a species of very ancient trees (I am writing from memory). If so, we can have some confidence that the pyramids of South America were build when scholars tell us.

Now why is this fascinating? Because if Fomenko's revision of Ancient Egyptian chronology is accurate, the pyramids there were essentially contemporaneous with those of South America (actually, they were built a little bit after the ones in South America!).

Intuitively, this makes more sense to me (and I suspect to the average seven year old) than does orthodox chronology, which has 2000 years passing post-Giza before the Aztecs and Incas get around to erecting essentially the same structures.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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N R Scott wrote:
Yep. Like Ishmael I have my doubts about the official Henry the 8th narrative.


I'm long beyond the "doubt" stage.

That extra finger in the painting looks pretty deliberate to me.


Can you find a higher resolution version of this painting?

In the following image (with Henry/the fool popping out from behind a curtain) there's a maze in the background (I think). Is it supposed to imply that it's at Hampton Court?


If we are at Hampton Court then we may not be looking at the Moore family at all. Henry may simply be Henry! The fool may be the King himself. If six-fingers is Anne Bolyn, Red Cape may be Cardinal Wolsey.

Are we looking at a painting of the dead!?!?!

My god. The stopped clock!!
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N R Scott


In: Middlesbrough
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Ishmael wrote:
Can you find a higher resolution version of this painting?

Nor, I've just been zooming in on the same image.



The glove has five fingers and the extra finger is clearly outside the glove and away from the palm of the hand.

Are we looking at a painting of the dead!?!?!

My god. The stopped clock!!

Or the unliving? - fictional characters that never existed in time?
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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N R Scott wrote:
The glove has five fingers and the extra finger is clearly outside the glove and away from the palm of the hand.

Indeed. Why the glove? If not as a device to imply the existence of an extra finger (though on only one hand) without actually painting an extra finger.

Are we looking at a painting of the dead!?!?!

Or the unliving? - fictional characters that never existed in time?


Well of course it is my belief that these are all fictional characters, yes. But which ones? Are we looking at a macabre painting of all those killed or executed by Henry? An assemblage of ghostly apparitions posed together. Moore's "family" indeed!
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Tilo Rebar


In: Sussex
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Ishmael wrote:
Are we looking at a macabre painting of all those killed or executed by Henry?


Very good Ishmael, and a great find from N A Scott.

My first thought was that the fictional character was Henry VIII, the fool of a king who had no control of his finance and who was disposed of (and replaced by a real fool) by the shrewd Anne Boleyn. The portraits of the supposed Moore family then becomes a record of her associates involved in the plot.

It is interesting that in 1536, the year of Anne's supposed death, Henry VIII had a jousting accident, in which he suffered a leg wound (groin?). The story relates that the accident re-opened and aggravated a previous leg wound sustained years before, to the extent that his doctors found it impossible to treat.

The wound festered for the remainder of his life and became ulcerated, thus preventing him from maintaining the level of physical activity he had previously enjoyed. The jousting accident is believed to have caused Henry's mood swings, which may have had a dramatic effect on his personality and temperament. He almost became a different man.

I wonder just how many Henry VIII wore the robes of office during his reign?

Could this be a candidate for a younger/slimmer one...



Sir Thomas Wyatt - Court poet, personal servant and ambassador to Henry VIII.

From Wiki:-
"...In May 1536 Wyatt was imprisoned in the Tower of London for allegedly committing adultery with Anne Boleyn. He was released from the Tower later that year, thanks to his friendship or his father's friendship with Thomas Cromwell, and he returned to his duties.

During his stay in the Tower he may have witnessed not only the execution of Anne Boleyn (19 May 1536) from his cell window but also the prior executions of the five men with whom she was accused of adultery. Wyatt is known to have written a poem inspired by the experience, which, though it stays clear of declaring the executions groundless, expresses grief and shock.

In the 1530s, he wrote poetry in the Devonshire MS declaring his love for a woman; employing the basic acrostic formula: the first letter of each line spells out SHELTUN. A reply is written underneath it, signed by Mary Shelton, rejecting him. Mary, Anne Boleyn's first cousin, had been the mistress of Henry VIII between February and August 1535..."
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Tilo Rebar wrote:
My first thought was that the fictional character was Henry VIII, the fool of a king who had no control of his finance and who was disposed of (and replaced by a real fool) by the shrewd Anne Boleyn. The portraits of the supposed Moore family then becomes a record of her associates involved in the plot.


That was your first thought, was it?

Where do you get these ideas?
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Incidentally, the wound that never heals links Henry with the mythical Fisher King of Arthurian legend. The specific location of the wound in his thigh associates him with the biblical Jacob and also with the God Uranus of mythology (who is castrated).

The thigh wound is, specifically, a reference (believe it or not) to the Phi ratio (Ph = Th). The same is true of mythical castration. Details regarding this are available elsewhere on this site.
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Tilo Rebar


In: Sussex
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Ishmael wrote:
...The specific location of the wound in his thigh associates him with the biblical Jacob and also with the God Uranus of mythology (who is castrated)...


So the same old fiction gets used over and over again by the people fudging the past. You'd think they would at least have tried to be a bit more original, although perhaps familiar stories are easier to accept.

The recent attempt to prove some old bones were the relics of King Alfred, and the previous discovery of Richard III (alleged) under a car park, could be the most recent attempts to maintain the status quo regarding the history of our bogus monarchy.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Ishmael wrote:

Well of course it is my belief that these are all fictional characters, yes. But which ones? Are we looking at a macabre painting of all those killed or executed by Henry? An assemblage of ghostly apparitions posed together. Moore's "family" indeed!


All those haunted by roi?

Haunt roi?
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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The clock looks too advanced for its time... depends of course when this portrait is said to have been painted.

John Harrison, the inventor of the longitude clock, was baptised in St Michael and Our Lady, the Winn family's chapel at Nostell Priory, which was built after the Dissolution in 1533. Perhaps merely a coincidence or maybe the clock is honouring Harrison's achievement.
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N R Scott


In: Middlesbrough
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I've just finished reading two plays about about Henry VIII. Shakespeare's Henry VIII (1613) and a play called When You See Me You Know Me by Samuel Rowley (1605).

The Shakespeare play told the story as we know it today - although it only dealt with the marriage to Anne Boleyn and the birth of Elizabeth (none of the subsequent marriages were mentioned). However, the second play was kinda crazy. That play dealt with the birth of Edward and Henry's life onwards.

The oddest thing was that Cardinal Wolsey was still alive at the end of it during the reign of Catherine Parr. Wolsey also claims responsibility for the death of Anne Boleyn at one point in the play, even though conventional history tells us that he died in 1530, three years before she even became Queen. Thomas Cromwell isn't mentioned at all during the entire thing.

Another odd thing was that Catherine Howard was completely skipped over. With Henry marrying Catherine Parr straight after Jane Seymour (Anne of Cleves got briefly mentioned in just one line).

Incidentally, the Shakespeare play's alternative title at the time was All is True.
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