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Who birthed the Renaissance? (NEW CONCEPTS)
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Angus McOatup wrote:
Ishmael wrote:
An examination by microscope in January 1987 by the Courtauld Institute indicated that an original eighteenth century date had apparently been changed by additions of brown/grey and blue/black semi-transparent << overpaint >> to create the 1530 or 1532 now visible

So scholars no longer consider this to be a Holbein?

the canvas has been carbon 14 dated to between 1400 and 1520....but this date has been disputed by art experts ..who aren't scientists etc...But Mick is entirely correct in assuming it could indeed be by a real Rowland Lockey...But this doesn't dispel the rumours about the Princes in the Tower, or Holbein's use of rebus's or Lockey's brilliant use of the same highly personal rebus's etc....If only Jack Leslau was still alive. .Perhaps his son will publish his father's work on Holbein's hidden rebus's?


I am a bit lost really.

It is pretty easy to challenge the orthodox science (dating, use of colour pigments) etc and use of orthodox history.....and why not add in a fake.... (shock horror).

What interests me more is that we are then left with paintings read as tarot or playing cards. The images already shown are Kings, and Knaves. Thomas More for example is something like a Jack of Diamonds to a King of Clubs.... The two in the tower.... Aha.

The Artists (whoever) have clearly been influenced by playing cards.

The basis of this type of clever clever, art history is really just common tarot reading skills. (With intellectual scientific wank added).

The question is why?

My guess is that both the art and the history of the period are reflections of widespread gambling and card playing.......

Presumably lesser artists would design common cards or woodcuts.

Common story telling occurred through the playing and reading of common cards, these paintings are just the aristocratic version.

Your historians, and art historians, have then misread all of this as fact.
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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I've got an interesting tarot story which is completely off topic (except that it does involve forgery). One Christmas morn someone was given a tarot pack. Being M J Harper I immediately claimed to be an experienced Tarot reader. Making it up on the spot I began to read peoples fortunes to general amazement.

A thirteen-year-old member of the household later asked me how I did it so I showed her the general technique. Whereupon she started reading people's fortunes. The only difference was that her 'clients' were rapidly reduced to tears because the thirteen-year-old hadn't learned that you have to do these things with great tact. You must forge the forgery as we forgers put it.
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Tilo Rebar


In: Sussex
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Hatty wrote:

With reference to this dating malarkey...

So many different calendars produced over time. So many calendars running concurrently. Absolute dream for those wanting to bend history, especially when the start point was based on a mythical character.

'He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past.'
From 1984 by George Orwell
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Mick Harper wrote:
I've got an interesting tarot story which is completely off topic .


No it was me that went wildly off topic.

I wanted to establish links between cards, currency and portrait paintings.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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The megalithic obsession with gaming/gambling transferred from Jack(s)knuckle-bones, via four handed chess (schach) to cards Jack.

It is blindingly obvious, the links between gaming and currency.

I am surprised that I didn't spot it earlier.

Still been a bit off form lately.

I think the experiment with legal highs was not as successful as first thought.... Could be a problem with the methodology.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Wile E. Coyote wrote:
The Artists (whoever) have clearly been influenced by playing cards.


Astonishing! I had precisely the same thought in my head! But I thought I was being silly.

Nevertheless, I went so far as to look up Tarot Cards to see if I could find some overlap in symbol. Of course, it was "The Fool" that prompted me to think of the Tarot.

I saw some overlaps but not much. The unknown figure in the doorway, for example, appears to echo the Magician with his sword and scroll being the magician's primary markers.

Common story telling occurred through the playing and reading of common cards, these paintings are just the aristocratic version. Your historians, and art historians, have then misread all of this as fact.


You must explain this!!!

In this group, we had previously noted that various King Henry's appear to live the same story, and even in the case of Henry VIII, the same story plays out repeatedly: Various persons named "Thomas" invariably end up dead, for example.

Are you suggesting that stories are written by combining in different ways a set of characters randomly assembled from a deck?
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Ishmael wrote:
[Are you suggesting that stories are written by combining in different ways a set of characters randomly assembled from a deck?


Yes. Or rather I am saying a bit more than that. Megalithic (his)stories are reinvented and understood through the medium of reading from a pack.

One clue in all this, is the concept of Jack/Schach/Check (err cheque)........

It really starts with Jack the Gambler.....

I was going to write a chapter on this in COIN, but Angus has made me rethink, I now realise I was originally wrong....
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Angus McOatup


In: England
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Wile E. Coyote wrote:
Mick Harper wrote:
I've got an interesting tarot story which is completely off topic .


No it was me that went wildly off topic.

I wanted to establish links between cards, currency and portrait paintings.

Not that off topic Wile. Holbein did do some Taroish stuff, come to think of it? His 'Dance macabre' (Dance of Death). which were very popular. They're the cards that people like Vincent Price flash about in old horror films...

http://www.dodedans.com/Eholbein06.htm
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Angus McOatup wrote:


Not that off topic Wile. Holbein did do some Taroish stuff, come to think of it? His 'Dance macabre' (Dance of Death). which were very popular. They're the cards that people like Vincent Price flash about in old horror films...

http://www.dodedans.com/Eholbein06.htm


Yeah, and roughly right time and place, to match even the "orthodox" history of playing and tarot cards. (up to now)

I must thank you for bringing this to my attention.

You have filled in a whole number of gaps.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Please gentlemen.Continue this thread.

Can anyone see any tarot references in the family portrait? Are there cards present? Of course we have The Fool and I have identified a possible Magician. Anyone else?
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N R Scott


In: Middlesbrough
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Ishmael wrote:
family portrait?

Or Herny VIII and his six wives??

Is the painting mirrored down the middle - three women on the left, three on the right? Is the guy in red supposed to be a cardinal?

There are other versions of this painting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rowland_Lockey

Check out the dude peeping out from behind a curtain in one of them.
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Tilo Rebar


In: Sussex
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Good stuff here.

However, let's not forget the ancient card game of Tarot.

The French variant is a type of Whist with bidding which uses the normal four suits, but with the addition of a knight to the honours, giving fourteen cards each suit. It also has a separate suit of 21 'atouts', which are permanent trumps.

Finally it has a 'joker/fool/jester' called l'Excuse, which if you hold it can be used once in a game to avoid following suit, but l'Excuse cannot win a trick. It is an escape card, and acts as a substitute for any card in your hand, but most useful to avoid losing a Roi (King), Dame (Queen), Chevalier (Knight) or Valet (Jack) to a trump.

So perhaps the King's fool was a a scapegoat (excuse) used to protect the king from having to accept punishment - bit like Jesus was a scapegoat, sacrificed to forgive the misdeeds of mankind?

I'm afraid religion never made any sense to me.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Tilo Rebar wrote:
So perhaps the King's fool was a scapegoat (excuse) used to protect the king from having to accept punishment - bit like Jesus was a scapegoat, sacrificed to forgive the misdeeds of mankind?


Well this is the whole myth that is bandied about among scholars.

Once upon a time (so I have heard it said), there were Kings that were elected for a term. They were entitled to rule and enjoyed every pleasure and indulgence. But only for a term. At the end of the term, they were executed (some say the execution involved a triple death that climaxed in orgasm and the seeding of a virgin but... it's all rather speculative as it is).

One day, some king got the bright idea that dying was a poor career move. So a new practice was instituted. That of a "fool's day" (April Fools). For one day of the year, an idiot was crowned King, only to be executed in the King's stead, allowing the monarch to resume his reign (The King is dead, Long live the King).

All this has been dreamed up by academics perhaps with too much time on their hands. I was told the tale back in my university days.

Now all of this appears to relate to the Christ mythology as well. Not only in that Jesus is crowned "King" and then executed in our place (and in the place of the Jewish nation, explicitly in the Gospel text). It also appears to be echoed in the Barabbas appearance, where one prisoner is released while the other implicitly takes his place.

Barabbas' first name is invariably omitted, for it is uncomfortable. Barabbas' full name in the text is Jesus Barabbas. A kind of twin then for Jesus. But more strangely; the name Barabbas means "Son of the Father."

How odd then that we have a fellow in the home of Thomas Moore bearing the title of "Fool" who has the name Henry Patenson, a name I earlier suggested might be meant to imply "Henry 'Son of the Father'": A Fool who takes the place of the King?

It's all so strange.
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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Dear Ishmael, next time you see Fomenko can you tell him that, on a programme trying to indentify Alfred the Great's bones last night, an Oxford radio-carbon bod was asked to test five skeletons and was told specifically, "We're hoping for around 900 AD". Just as Fomenko said usually happens.

The bloke came back with, "Four are from 1500 and one from 1100. Sorry." Just as Fomenko didn't say.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Mick Harper wrote:
The bloke came back with, "Four are from 1500 and one from 1100. Sorry." Just as Fomenko didn't say.


Yes. Fomenko does not say that the labs always return the answer sought.

Of course not.

Now even that would look strange to everyone.

The questions are; why do the labs request a suggested or hoped-for date at all (if not to rule-out wildly incompatible test results); why are there no control samples; why no double-blind testing; why only one lab?
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