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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Corpse roads are copper routes? Coffin and coffer are interchangeable, perhaps coffer and copper have a common root. It's clear from folklore that certain trackways were to be respected, for instance anyone foolish enough to obstruct a 'fairy path' would come to a bad end.
Coffer is koffr in Welsh, kofer in Cornish. Copper is copr in Welsh, kober in Cornish. Etymology dictionaries say copper is a corruption of Cyprus, a copper producing centre, which seems rather unlikely for such a widespread metal.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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Wile starts with Rivers.
| wiki wrote: | ]The River Cober (Cornish: Dowr Kohar)[1] is a short river in west Cornwall, United Kingdom. It rises near Porkellis Moor in the former Kerrier District and runs to the west of the town of Helston before entering the largest natural lake in Cornwall -- Loe Pool.[2] The water is impounded by the natural barrier, Loe Bar, and the river system can be traced several kilometres out into Mount's Bay.[3] Mining activity of over one hundred years in the river catchment, ceased in 1938, in the Wendron and Porkellis mining districts; and the engine house of Castle Wary (also known as Wheal Pool), near Nansloe can still be seen on the east side of the river below Helston. The lower reaches of river was canalised in 1946 and a causeway built over Loe Marsh in 1987.[4]
A common belief is that until the 13th century the River Cober ran directly to sea, until its mouth became blocked by a deposition of sand which formed Loe Bar and created Loe Pool.[5] Loe Bar was more likely created by eustatic sea level rise after the last ice age. The rising sea level pushed a large amount of sediment into the mouth of the river, blocking it and creating a barrier beach.
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Interesting.....
Still on a different tack...
Murray's Guide (1865) describes this as `a stream called the Cober, from Cobra an old word signifying serpentine or sinuous... . Maybe the poisonous discoloured coppery hue of the river, as a result of mineworking was equated with snake venom?
Keeping up the death theme, and putting an altogether different slant on things.
The River Cober was bridged about 1260 near the old cattle market on the Penzance road.
Nearby is Lowertown, Cunnack's (note the name) Knacker Yard. It was the venue for dead cattle and horses....
These corpses were transported by so called `Dead Carts', Horse drawn vehicles carrying their way to the Knacker yards.
Note the similarity between Cunnack Knacker and.... Knocker.........
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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The Loe Bar appears to be a replica on a smaller scale of Chesil Beach and the Fleet Lagoon. Wiki notes its strange construction
| Loe Bar consists mainly of flint, a rock not found in Cornwall; the nearest onshore source is in east Devon, 120 miles away. |
I find it hard to believe that the River Cober is named for a cobra though Cornwall was no doubt infiltrated by many varied traders and their funny ways.
Harvested salt in southern France is dried in pyramids or piles as in Brittany and other salt-producing areas, the process taking a year or so. In the S of F the salt piles are camelles. (The French say this is because the drying brownish piles look like camels' humps [hump = bosse in French] which I also find a bit hard to believe as at least some piles would be white or white-ish). I wonder if Camelford, inland from Tintagel, imposed a salt or 'camel' tax.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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There is (or was until very modern times) little copper in Cornwall so any strictly Cornish coffr = copper is unlikely. However a cobra = sinuousity is a runner since this is (claimed to be) a Portuguese word (unless they loaned it from India in the 16th Century).
But it is worth assuming that, early doors, it may have been the minerals industry that first found making actual roads worthwhile presumably because they were the only people that had to shift very large loads in particualr directions (ore in one direction, timber in the other) using wheeled transport. However Cornwall was always famous for its lack of roads.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| Hatty wrote: | | Corpse roads are copper routes? Coffin and coffer are interchangeable, perhaps coffer and copper have a common root. It's clear from folklore that certain trackways were to be respected, for instance anyone foolish enough to obstruct a 'fairy path' would come to a bad end. |
Christ died on the Cross. He was nailed to the crossroad. He died so we might travel in a straight line.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Wittenham Clumps http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wittenham_Clumps
turned up on Countryfile tonite.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0391ktg
Everybody pranced about on them without ever noticing they were completely artificial.
One interesting thing: the beech copse on each clump was claimed to have been planted in the eighteenth century [Yokel A: Lezz plant some beeches up there for no reason at all. Yokel B: Yerra, and we best look after 'em good cos they've gotta last for three hundred years till them telly people comes along.]
But apparently they need replacing now so the Bigwigs have decided to replace the beeches with hornbeam "because beech don't do very well in the drought (that is to come thanks to global warming)".
Note to Bigwigs: the Megalithics planted beech because they found, five thousand years ago, that that was the best way to keep the Clumps from eroding away. So plant hornbeam at your peril.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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It's exactly at the location of Wittenham Clumps, overlooking Dorchester-on-Thames, where the Thames (here aka the Isis) makes a pronounced dog-leg bend. So instead of flowing west-east, it suddenly flows north-south towards Wallingford and the Goring Gap, crossing point of the Ridgeway.
The change of course may be a coincidence but it's a mighty convenient one.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Another thing, St Birinus who is the patron saint of the Thames Valley, venerated as the first bishop of Dorchester-on-Thames, is written Berin in English.
Could Berin be Bran?
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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St Piran.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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Rather interestingly the king of wessex (sic) at the time was Cenwahl....
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Looks like the Clumps are saying this way to Cornwall. There is another Dorchester on the main east-west road known as the Icen Way. Door to door service.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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This is also interesting.
The Mercia kings Coenwulf and Ceolwulf, and their brother Cuthred, King of Kent, claimed descent from an otherwise unknown brother of Penda and Eowa called Coenwalh. It has been suggested that Coenwalh was in fact this Cenwealh | |
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Tilo Rebar
In: Sussex
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| Hatty wrote: |
The change of course may be a coincidence but it's a mighty convenient one. |
It's not too difficult to change the direction of a river on fairly level ground. Just lots of labour to dig, move large stones and somewhere convenient to dump the spoil.
Also to be found near this interesting corner of the Thames is an obliterated henge, near Benson, a couple of miles away. Can be seen on this aerial photo from the 1930's...
A 'roman' road near the bend in the Thames and other interesting stuff was found just before the new village of Berinsfield was built in 1958...
"Rev. R Hussey in 1840 researched and plotted the route of the Roman Road, which runs through our village towards the Roman town of Alcester, just outside Bicester. The road was 16.5 miles long and its Agger was 24 feet wide, one foot high going up to two feet high in the centre with a ditch either side. The route leaving Dorchester going up Green Lane and going through our village and out the other side to the north is well defined, the course can be followed going through Marsh Baldon, Little Baldon, Baldon, Chislehampton and Garsington with existing roads, footpaths and tree lines."
More on the ancient history of the area, including details of a mass burial site found near gravel beds, can be found here...
http://www.berinsfield-pc.gov.uk/Contents/Text/Index.asp?SiteId=272&SiteExtra=14303760&TopNavId=587&NavSideId=2906
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Tilo Rebar
In: Sussex
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Nice shot of the Clumps from the 1930's, with the Thames just visible on the right...
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Tilo Rebar
In: Sussex
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | There is (or was until very modern times) little copper in Cornwall so any strictly Cornish coffr = copper is unlikely. |
Thanks Mick, this just triggered a distant memory of a visit to the Wheal Trewavas, which is just west of Porthleven. A quick web search came up with the following...
"Perched precariously on the cliffs to the east of Trewavas Head are the two engine houses that form the remains of Wheal Trewavas mine. The mine worked four copper lodes which ran in a south easterly direction under the sea bed. These were the North Lode; Sowan Way Lode; Trewavas South (Old) Lode and Nimble Cutter Lode. There was also one tin lode which ran across the other lodes in an east to west direction."
It is possible that the first bronze was produced by accident in Cornwall, as both raw materials were adjacent.
It could easily happen that copper from this, or a similar area, was contaminated with a small amount of tin and someone noticed that a harder, less brittle metal had been produced. I wonder how many other places in the world both copper and tin could/can be found in the same small area?
I don't know the history of this part of Cornwall, but perhaps The Loe is evidence of ancient tin/copper streaming.
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