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Homeopathy (Health)
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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For some time now I have wanted to have a discussion of Homeopathy. This 'treatment' is described as quackery and, indeed, if one reads how it works, one must conclude that it can't work.

Problem is, it worked for me.

Now skeptics say this is attributable to the placebo effect. I simply can't accept this.

Moreover, I have learned that, when subjected to the same rigorous testing, many conventional medicines also fail against placebo, yet these medicines have established effects -- they are known to function. It appears that placebo testing may not be an accurate measure of effectiveness (and this is a related subject worthy of discussion).

Here then is my subjective experience.

Case #1: Homeopathic remedy for stress relief
This product is marketed to reduce stress in pets. You spray the solution in their drinking water or food and they are supposed to be less excitable.

I ingested the solution under my tongue and, within seconds(!), experienced a minor euphoria comparable to a slight marijuana buzz. I felt *mellow*. The feeling was quite delicious.

Subsequent applications have had a reduced effect but still noticeable.


Case#2: Homeopathic remedy for sinus infection
This product is marketed for human use and is meant to clear the sinuses when stuffed up or inflamed.

I took the product, in pill form, and within 2 minutes the blockage in my ear began to break up -- my ears began to pop, and my nose began to run. I was shocked by the power of the response. Being educated, I knew Homeopathy could not possibly work and yet, my sinus blockage was breaking up. How was this possible?


Case #1 is easily attributable to the placebo effect. That's why, despite having had one positive result, I was so shocked by Case #2. But in that second case, I simply can't accept that this physical response was triggered exclusively by my mind. Something happened. Something very specific happened. Exactly what was supposed to happen. And it happened with a rapidity that is inexplicable.
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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The most convincing example I saw was done on animals where presumably the placebo effect cannot operate (unless the vet can communicate it). Another, if amusing, example was done on migraine patients when, to the experimenters' consternation, the migraine rate went up! It never occurred to the homeopaths they had just 'proved' that their inert substances had had a measurable effect in the real world (albeit in the opposite way they had hoped).

My own interest in the area is that, if found to work, homeopathy would prove that either the molecule theory of chemistry is not true (cue collapse of various paradigms) or that the molecules have a memory (cue more collapses).

But, alas, I am a firm non-believer.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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In case #1, my wife tried the substance about 2 hours before I did. When she did so, she had no expectation of the rapidity of the response. Her first question to the sales staff, after sampling it was, "Is it supposed to be working this fast? 'Cause I feel something now!"

When she gave it to me later, her own scientific curiosity kept her from mentioning her earlier experience. She wanted to see how I would react. After I tried it I said, "Wow. I think I'm feeling this already? Is it supposed to be working this fast?"

With placebo, one's expectations might be expected to guide the effect. Neither of us expected the effect to be so immediate. Our expectations were shaped by our experience of conventional medicine where effects aren't typically experienced until 30 minutes to an hour later.

Both of us expressed the same identical sentiments.

Now it is often said that the test of whether one is hallucinating is whether one's companion sees the same alien climbing out of the flying saucer. My wife and I had an identical experience yet I'm supposed to dismiss that because it doesn't conform to 20th century concepts of how the universe is supposed to work.

Sorry. Can't do it.

Something happened and it wasn't an illusion.
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Chad


In: Ramsbottom
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A few years back a friend of mine, who was a big advocate of homeopathic medicine, persuaded me to try a course of pills to relieve my eczema.

I was a total non-believer (it simply could not work... FACT) but he was such a nice guy (and had gone to the trouble to get the pills for me) I decided to go along with it.

After a month of taking the 'remedy' (exactly as directed) my eczema was completely unaltered.

Now sometime later I was searching the net for alternative treatments for eczema and found rave reviews for a 'homeopathic' cream which had worked wonders for the reviewers... unfortunately it was later found to contain high levels of cortiso-steroids.

So firstly Ish, can you be 100% certain that your 'remedies' contained 'what it said on the tin'?

And secondly, you know we are unlikely to be persuaded by anecdotal evidence... unless it is supported by a proposed mechanism for efficacy.

So, come on... I know you must have one.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Chad wrote:
So firstly Ish, can you be 100% certain that your 'remedies' contained 'what it said on the tin'?


*perfect* !!!!

This is such an A.E. analysis. I would put money on your being right.

So, come on... I know you must have one.


My goal was not to persuade but to start a conversation.

That said, I have been trying to connect the results of this personal experiment to other ideas I've been exploring concerning hormonal, chem-based communication.

I really should start posting that stuff but the problem is a lot of it, being centered on human sexuality, can be embarrassing! :-)

(I pay for this space -- I get to draw smileys)
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DPCrisp


In: Bedfordshire
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Then tell us about "your friend" who can only get a hard-on if he's wearing old sneakers.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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DPCrisp wrote:
Then tell us about "your friend" who can only get a hard-on if he's wearing old sneakers.


Interestingly, I've got a theory about the sneakers (and foot fetishes in general). Shouldn't be too hard to guess if you go read the thread. And ask yourself the question, why are there no elbow fetishists? That pretty well blows up all the psychological explanations for such fetishism.
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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can you be 100% certain that your 'remedies' contained 'what it said on the tin'?

Strange, a friend sent an e-mail today about one of our mutual acquaintances who's been suffering from labyrinthitis. Never having heard of it, I looked it up and read that the usual prescribed treatment is an anti-psychotic drug which seems a bizarre way to treat a condition involving vertigo, anxiety attacks, disorientation, etc. Hair of the dog in armfuls. She's just emailed back to say our friend was given antihistamines.
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Grant



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And ask yourself the question, why are there no elbow fetishists?


You're right. Fetishes are often linked with smell. That must be why you get leather and rubber fetishes.

It also might explain another mystery I'd never been able to understand - why do women traditionally wear skirts?
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nemesis8


In: byrhfunt
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Ishmael wrote:
Here then is my subjective experience.

Case #1: Homeopathic remedy for stress relief
This product is marketed to reduce stress in pets. You spray the solution in their drinking water or food and they are supposed to be less excitable.

I ingested the solution under my tongue and, within seconds(!), experienced a minor euphoria comparable to a slight marijuana buzz. I felt *mellow*. The feeling was quite delicious.


That would be the brandy. Rescue remedies often contain brandy.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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nemesis8 wrote:
That would be the brandy. Rescue remedies often contain brandy.


Will a drop of brandy have such an immediate and dramatic soothing effect? Drinking it never seemed to have such an effect.
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nemesis8


In: byrhfunt
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Look at the ingredients.My guess is the rescue recipe has a large component of brandy. The manufacturer will tell you that the important stuff is the herbs/flowers within the brandy. Sadly, I think your reaction was to the brandy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_Remedy


So far, so boring.

Why did you have such an immediate dramatic and soothing effect?

I haven't a clue.

Here is a total guess, just for fun.

Your tastebuds react with your brain. Your brain processes information.

The relationship between tastebud and brain was therefore vital in prehistory, as before the widespread domestication of foodcrops/animals, I guess consistently getting right what you swallow, either keeps you alive or kills you.

Your brain was placed on alert that you could be swallowing something harmful. It was a pet remedy. Suddenly there was an element of chance/worry. On tasting the remedy, your tastebuds and brain "worked out" it was safe and tasty, and rewarded you.

On future occasions the reaction was less strong as you were less worried when sampling. Your brain knew it was safe and tasty.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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I don't buy it.
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nemesis8


In: byrhfunt
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OK, let's agree to differ, one condition.... that you stick to the pet rescue, I will stick to the brandy.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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I don't "differ" with you. I find your explanation inadequate. As should you. For, like most academic theories in every subject you could name, it is only a rationalization -- a story you have invented. There is no thesis here.

Point of fact for the rest of you: At the time I had no idea this was a "pet remedy". All I knew was that it was something my wife was giving me that was supposedly homeopathic -- which told me right away that it was sure to be useless. I think I knew it was supposed to be anti-anxiety (in retrospect, I wish she had not told me this).
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