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What About Them Apples? (History)
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Mick Harper
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I am not being entirely facetious. John of Gaunt, the founder of the Lancastrian house (red rose, ie rosy-crucian) was the 'Protector' of the Lollards in England -- and as readers of TME will know, a major Megalithic figure. The Lollards were the progenitors of the Czechoslovakian Hussites. The Czech Hussites were the progenitors of the German Lutherans.
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Boreades


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Jorn wrote:
It is quite obvious when you think about it, that you needed to be able to tally before you reckon time and tide.

I am trying to understand how the Celtic Yan tan tethera counting worked, as it looks to be common to the whole Celtic world.


Celtic Yan tan tethera counting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yan_tan_tethera

I might have mentioned the following on TME, so apologies if it's not new to some of you.

Modern-day navigators routinely use tide tables and an almanac with both a solar and a lunar calendar (for moon phase dates) and sun rise and set times.

Ancient navigators didn't have any of that, did they?

Ah well, actually they might have. The Druids had a very well developed Calendar. Memorising its workings would surely have been a basic part of their 20 year training.

From the Saltair Na Rann:
For each day five items of knowledge are required of everyone, with no appearance of boasting, who would be leader. The day of the solar month, the age of the moon, the state of the sea tide, without error, the day of the week, the calendar of the feasts of the deities.

(As an aside, can we conclude Druid leadership was therefore a meritocracy, where the leader was the one who retained and recalled the most & best knowledge. If you can demonstrate that, no boasting is required.)

I wondered why special emphasis was placed in the tides.
the state of the sea tide, without error
Surely "without error" applied to all of the "five items" for each day? Or was there something extra-special about learning the tides?

Then I recalled the strange choices of location for Celtic Saints, very often on isolated islands where "hermits" had been before. As mentioned in other posts, the Celtic Christians assimilated Druidic knowledge and ways of working, and appear to have continued that for some centuries.

All the other requisite knowledge would be consistent over the whole country, but the tides are not consistent. High tide on (e.g.) Anglesey is on a different cycle to high tide on St.Michael's Mount. For this part of the "five items", local knowledge is essential. Local observation posts, or Druid's Circles, or chapels, would have to be established. Most likely these would also been places for Beaconage.
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Mick Harper
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The way forward is surely to ask, "What does knowledge of local tides assist you to do?" There are two aspects of local tides:
1. when does high (or low) tide occur -- this is either an absolute time or an hour after yesterday's
2. How high (or low) is the tide (which is presumably a lunar calendar thing).
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Boreades


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I'd go for
2. How high (or low) is the tide (which is presumably a lunar calendar thing).

For all tidal places, the local cycle is in phase with the moon, plus or minus a constant number of hours. It's just that the constant number of hours varies all round the coast.

Nowadays, nautical almanacs cope with this by showing local port high & low tide times as a plus or minus (hh:mm) from a reference port. e.g. Dover, or Devonport, or places like that.
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Boreades


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Mick Harper wrote:
I am not being entirely facetious. John of Gaunt, the founder of the Lancastrian house (red rose, ie rosy-crucian) was the 'Protector' of the Lollards in England -- and as readers of TME will know, a major Megalithic figure. The Lollards were the progenitors of the Czechoslovakian Hussites. The Czech Hussites were the progenitors of the German Lutherans.


Re Rosicrucianism

The year 1378 is presented as being the birth year of "our Christian Father",, and it is stated that he lived 106 years. After studying in the Middle East under various masters, possibly adhering to Sufism, he was unable to spread the knowledge he had acquired to any prominent European figures. Instead, he gathered a small circle of friends/disciples and founded the Rosicrucian Order (this can be deduced to have occurred around 1407).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosicrucianism

Islam -> Sufism -> Rosicrucianism?

Who was "he", the founder of Rosicrucianism?

Did/do Rosicrucians regard him as a "Prophet of God" after Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus (Zero AD?) and Muhammad. (c570 – 632 AD)?
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Mick Harper
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For all tidal places, the local cycle is in phase with the moon, plus or minus a constant number of hours. It's just that the constant number of hours varies all round the coast.

Nowadays, nautical almanacs cope with this by showing local port high & low tide times as a plus or minus (hh:mm) from a reference port. e.g. Dover, or Devonport, or places like that.


Perhaps so but you haven't indicated of what earthly use this was for Druids/ Megalithics/ whoever.
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Boreades


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Mick Harper wrote:
[what earthly use this was for Druids/ Megalithics/ whoever.


By way of a backwards example (so to speak), I'd suggest that Trinity House is being very modest about its origins.

Trinity House (formally The Master Wardens and Assistants of the Guild Fraternity or Brotherhood of the most glorious and undivided Trinity and of St. Clement in the Parish of Deptford Strond in the County of Kent)

Trinity House is also an official deep sea pilotage authority, providing expert navigators for ships trading in Northern European waters.

Trinity House is ruled by a court of thirty-one Elder Brethren, presided over by a Master ... appointed from 300 Younger Brethren who act as advisors and perform other duties as needed. The Younger Brethren are themselves appointed from lay people with maritime experience, mainly naval officers and ships' masters but also harbourmasters, pilots, yachtsmen and anyone with useful experience.

The Corporation came into being in 1514 by Royal Charter granted by Henry VIII

In 1566 Queen Elizabeth I's Seamarks Act enabled Trinity House
at their wills and pleasures, and at their costs, [to] make, erect, and set up such, and so many beacons, marks, and signs for the sea whereby the dangers may be avoided and escaped, and ships the better come into their ports without peril.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_House
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Mick Harper
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Yes, yes, we marked Trinity House's Megalithic card yonks ago. But you have to tell us (your wife being a yachtsman and all) how knowledge of tides are used in (presumably) pre-literate navigation (or whatever they were doing).

PS Anything conspiratorial about Trinity House always welcome.
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Ishmael


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The War of the Roses did not take place in the British Isles. Britain has merely appropriated the history of Europe and shifted it to an earlier age.
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Wile E. Coyote


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On-Line wrote:


TIDE......

Old English tid "point or portion of time, due time, period, season; feast-day, canonical hour," from Proto-Germanic *tidiz "division of time" (cognates: Old Saxon tid, Dutch tijd, Old High German zit, German Zeit "time"), from PIE *di-ti- "division, division of time," suffixed form of root *da- "to divide, cut up" (cognates: Sanskrit dati "cuts, divides;" Greek demos "people, land," perhaps literally "division of society," daiesthai "to divide;" Old Irish dam "troop, company").

Meaning "rise and fall of the sea" (mid-14c.) probably is via notion of "fixed time," specifically "time of high water;" either a native evolution or from Middle Low German getide (compare Middle Dutch tijd, Dutch tij, German Gezeiten "flood tide, tide of the sea"). Old English seems to have had no specific word for this, using flod and ebba to refer to the rise and fall. Old English heahtid "high tide" meant "festival, high day."


Time/Tide/Date/Day/Festival days/Saints days.
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Hatty
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Wiki says
Idus, Ides, thought to have originally been the day of the full moon, was the 13th day of the months with 29 days, but the 15th day of March, May, July, and October (the months with 31 days).

Tides are 'the ides' i.e. full moon dates?
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Hatty
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Zenith, defined as the highest point in the sky reached by a celestial body, is, according to etymologists, 'from Arabic samt, meaning direction or path'. Could it be the same word as deniz, sea in Turkish?
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Mick Harper
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Time and tide waits for no man.

The origin is uncertain, although it's clear that the phrase is ancient and that it predates modern English.The earliest known record is from St. Marher, 1225:

"And te tide and te time -- at tu iboren were, schal beon iblescet."

A version in modern English - "the tide abides for, tarrieth for no man, stays no man, tide nor time tarrieth no man" evolved into the present day version.
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Wile E. Coyote


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Hatty wrote:
Zenith, defined as the highest point in the sky reached by a celestial body, is, according to etymologists, 'from Arabic samt, meaning direction or path'. Could it be the same word as deniz, sea in Turkish?


Saint??
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Boreades


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Mick Harper wrote:
Yes, yes, we marked Trinity House's Megalithic card yonks ago. But you have to tell us (your wife being a yachtsman and all) how knowledge of tides are used in (presumably) pre-literate navigation (or whatever they were doing).

PS Anything conspiratorial about Trinity House always welcome.


You might recall we've discussed this over on TME. For example, Hattie pointed out that :
Saint Malo (also known as Maclou or Mac'h Low, in Latin, as Maclovius or Machutus, and in Italian as Macuto) was the mid-6th century founder of Saint-Malo in Brittany, France. He is one of the seven founder saints of Brittany. His name may derive from the Old Breton mac'h (warrant) and luh (light).

Warrant Light by itself sounds strange or obscure. But let's remember what his roles were. (1) head of the Monastery (Navigation School), (2) in charge of the traditional hermit role of maintaining the beaconage. If (as we are told) Druids and Breton Saints often change their name when they get promoted, Michael (Mach-luh) might be the official job title. For someone in charge of the beaconage, being paid a tithe or tribute by local fisherman, or passing trade ships, Warrant Light sounds quite appropriate. It probably had both a literal and metaphoric meaning as he would have been an official holder of the Navigation School knowledge, to be taught to students and illuminate their mental darkness.

Malo, as one of the Celtic Saints, he's one of the usual suspects i.e. those that took over the Megalithic/Druid traditions. Brendan and Malo studied on Cezembre at the Monastery (Navigation School) founded by Saint Aaron. As a location, it was well-chosen, as the tidal range there is famously huge.

Jenny B. Wahl in "Law and Economics" points out that "Legends abound about lonely hermits or religious orders maintaining beaconage and lighthouse services. " and "Hermits were generally religious persons of substantial means who desired to end their days in solitude in some retreat, often an island along the British coast".

Or, well-educated Druids/Celtic Saints wishing to practice what they had learnt.

In time, these tithes or tributes became known as light dues or "fire-pence". From at least the 1100's on, many towns and ports in Ireland, Britain, the Cinque Ports, France, Holland and Belgium, the Hanseatic League (in Germany and Scandinavia), and the Baltic Sea, all collected light dues or "fire-pence" from ships coming into port.

"Until the early 1800s, .. a entrepreneur would petition the Privy Council (or Parliament itself) for a grant or patent to build and maintain a lighthouse at a specified point ... the patent entitled the holder to invoke the power of the crown to enforce the payment of the light dues themelves when a ship entered the port, most employed local collectors provided by Trinity House" (Jenny Wahl)

But "should the captain hesitate to pay, he might be threatened with arrest, denied the services of pilots to take him out to sea, or his papers confiscated".

Clearly, collecting light duties could be a lucrative business. I suspect the same was true for Celtic Saints, collecting donations/tithes/tributes/duties for providing the passing marine trade with pilots and beaconage.

Mariners can be notoriously superstitious. Celtic Saints had a lucrative trade in providing blessings and prayers for a safe passage. It appears that Druids did something similar, and then some!
e.g.
"Sena, in the British sea, facing the coast of the Osismi, is famous for a Gaulish oracle, tended by nine priestesses who take a vow of perpetual virginity. They are called Gallizenas (Gaullish Maidens) and are said to possess the singular power of unleashing the fury of the winds and the sea by incantations, of turning themselves into any animal they choose, of curing what is elsewhere considered incurable, and of knowing and predicting the future. But they reveal the future only to navigators, and only if they deliberately set out to consult them."
(Mapping the Lost World of the Celts, by Graham Robb, page 146, in turn quoting Pomonius Mela)

This resonates with the premise of many Mystery School traditions. Druids, Pythagoras, Rosecrucians, and so on. It's all a mystery or a secret, if you don't ask. If you do ask, you can discover the hidden mysteries of nature and science.
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