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What About Them Apples? (History)
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Mick has spoken a lot about the strange origins of Protestant Christianity. This morning I read in the Newspaper an interesting fact. It seems that Martin Luther nailed the 95 Thesis to the Cathedral door on Halloween. October 31st.

It also occurred to me this morning that Hallowe'en -- being "All Hallows Eve" is the day before "All Saints Day." It seems that the day once called "All Hallows Day" was transformed to "All Saints Day." When did this happen? And why wasn't the name of All Hallows Eve changed to All Saints Eve? One day is changed and the other left alone.

The other interesting thing is that November 1st is the day of All Hallows. That's only 4 days separation from November 5th, where Halloween is five. What is the history of All Hallows?

And this word, Hallows....looks like Gallows.
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Oakey Dokey



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Gallows/Hallows

I have previously suggested that Celtic (no such term should exist TBH) sacrifice was a rare execution for crimes. And this is where the Gal in Gallows comes from (hanging from an oak tree).

The reason being that unlike our current judicial system (reform and punish), the ancients thought that life was an illusion therefore to die was to speed up another chance at unlocking mysteries. To suffer death as a 'punishment' had to serve two functions. Firstly it had to stop a perpetrator repeating a crime. Secondly it had to give the perpetrators 'soul/life force' a sufficient chance to succeed. The best way to do this was thru the sacred door to the 'other realm' - the Oak. Hence hanging from oaks - Gallows. Which is another way of killing on 'Hallowed' ground. They were not just executing, they were sending the soul on its next part of its journey, we would consider this reincarnation. They would say another go round the merry-go-round.

These dudes were very, very spiritual in a way that lasts even without realisation of meaning IMO.

All Hallows Eve is where the underworld (the state of being non-living) is thinnest. Therefore it's our closest link to the dead but a celebration of those lost to us (because basically we love and can't forget in a human condition type of way). No bloody wonder it's so important. IT'S THE HOLIDAY - I mean can you honestly see anything more important to a society based on the next world? That's why in America it's survived and been corrupted by the commercial buck.
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DPCrisp


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Apart from gibbets for hanging, gallow or gally means to frighten: and there is clearly a sense of fear surrounding the hallowed.

Ironically, threatening (gallying) someone with the tree (gallows) like a (hallowed) martyr would amount to saying to a God-fearing Christian "behave yourself or you'll get the Christ treatment", which is precisely what they are supposed to have wanted!

What is the evidence that hanging, from oak trees or otherwise, is a particularly Celtic thing, Oakey?
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Oakey Dokey



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Apple is not a fruit as such but a term. It can also be attributed to anything growing from a stalk on a tree. The most obvious golden apple is none other than the Oak Gall. No, I'm serious. From the Biblical Garden of Eden to Druidic Britain the entire religious system we know today stems from a religious belief in the almighty god in the Oak tree.

Here's a taster:
The Biblical Hebrew name for the tree (specifically that used to describe the tree of knowledge) can mean door. The Welsh word for oak tree is derwen [derw, deri, f.] which gives its name to the religious sect Druids and consequently gives rise to the Welsh for door -drws, whilst wood is allt or gallt. Something sound familiar there?

Many Biblical references are made to both trees and stone, even the Caananites are said to be idolaters of trees and stones! Why? They are Israelites and the Judaic practice expressly forbids this sect to 'go the way of the Caananites', in other words they were not allowed to place a tree next to an altar (which is defined as many stones not one) and not allowed a pillar (what we would term a sacrificial altar). So tree and stone worship was widespread amongst the Israelites before the ten tribes are lost.

Abraham passed through the land to the place at Shechem, to the oak of Moreh. At that time the Canaanites were in the land. Then the Lord appeared to Abram, and said, "To your descendants I will give this land." So he built there an altar to the Lord, who had appeared to him (Gen. 12:6).

And all the men of Shechem gathered together...and made Avimelech king, by the oak of the pillar that was in Shechem (Judges 8:6)

And all the trees of the field shall know that I the Lord bring low the high tree, and make high the low tree, dry up the green tree, and make the dry tree flourish. I the Lord have spoken, and I will do it -- this is a reference to men being likened to trees!

she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with trees (Jeremiah 3:9) -- reference to idolatry worship again.

Many gods are associated with trees but none more than the head gods Zeus and Jupiter, interestingly this is their sacred tree -- THE sacred tree which is worshipped in a grove or wood and is also the very same oak. This is why the oak is associated with lightning and with the thunder gods (oaks are often hit by lightning). Even the Jewish mystic Kabbalah is based on a 'tree' and two pillars of stone. The same with the Buddhist refuge tree and even the Norse Yggdrasil.

None of this is conclusive until you factor in a few facts about the uses and characteristics of Oak galls:

"Oak Galls
Oak galls are spherical protuberances on the tree; excrescences produced by secretions of the larvae of different insects, who live in them until mature. "The young larva that hatches from the eggs feeds upon the tissues of the plant and secretes in its mouth a peculiar fluid, which stimulates the cells of the tissues to a rapid division and abnormal development, resulting in the formation of a gall. The larva thus becomes completely enclosed in a nearly spherical mass, which projects from the twig, furnishing it with a supply of starch and other nutritive material. The growth of the gall continues only so long as the egg or larva lives or reaches maturity and passes into a chrysalis, from which the fully-developed gall-wasp emerges and escapes into the air through a hole bored with its mandibles in the side of the gall (18)."

The galls of Q. infectoria, indigenous to Asia Minor and Persia, are used commercially for the preparation of gallic and tannic acid, and are used in tanning and dyeing, and in the manufacture of ink. Medicinally, the galls are a strong astringent, the most powerful of all vegetable astringents; used as an internal tincture for diarrhoea, and cholera, and as an injection for gonorrhoea. An external preparation of galls may be applied to painful hemorrhoids, and to stop bleeding from nose and gums. An infusion may be used as a gargle in a sore throat and inflamed tonsils (19)


Oak galls occur on all parts of the tree; when they form on the shoots they can greatly distort its growth. When the galls form on the oak's leaves, they are called "oak-apples." In England, May 29 is Oak-Apple Day, or Royal Oak Day. This supposedly began with Charles II, but is probably much older. In Oxfordshire, a piece of oak with an oak-apple on it, which was considered special, was worn before midday. In the afternoon this was replaced by ash leaves.

Lady Raglan (Folklore, L. i, 1939) has linked the ceremonies of Royal Oak Day, at the end of the May cycle, with the Green Man of May Day, at the beginning of the cycle. The heads so frequently carved in churches, with leaves around them, sometimes issuing from their mouths, represent the Green Man, the Jack-in-the-Green, or Robin Hood or King of May, the sacrificial victim. The leaves depicted are sometimes hawthorn, but usually oak (20)."

Even the Celtic calendar was based on trees:

The Celtic lunar calendar is composed of 13 lunations; Birch through Elder. The lunar year is divided into two halves; Birch-Oak, and Holly-Elder. The Gaelic for Oak is Duir, meaning 'door,' and Oak is also the hinge on which the door of the year swings. We are, therefore, standing at the door into the other half of the year -- on one side is the past, and on the other awaits the future. Are you happy with what you have achieved since Birch? Now is the time for amends, for once you walk through the door, and we all do, you will be asked to honestly evaluate yourself

And again it's associated with a door, this time celestial.

Now the infamous Apples of Sodom:
dictionary definition of what it is to be an apple:

3. Any fruit or other vegetable production resembling, or supposed to resemble, the apple; as, apple of love, or love apple (a tomato), balsam apple, egg apple, oak apple. [1913 Webster]
4. Anything round like an apple; as, an apple of gold. [1913 Webster]

and the Biblical description of this 'apple':

Vine of Sodom - referred to only in Deut. 32:32. Among the many conjectures as to this tree, the most probable is that it is the 'osher of the Arabs, which abounds in the region of the Dead Sea. Its fruit are the so-called "apples of Sodom," which, though beautiful to the eye, are exceedingly bitter to the taste. (See EN-GEDI .)

The people of Israel are referred to here by Moses as being utterly corrupt, bringing forth only bitter fruit. Yet if you read Deut. 32:32 it gives us
Deut 32:32 For their vine [is] of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes [are] grapes of gall, their clusters [are] bitter:

And what other mention or description do we have of this mystical plant?

To conclude this brief look at the mythical plants of the Medieval world, there must be made mention of the Apple of Sodom, a gigantic tree which grew in the desolated area that was once Sodom & Gomorrah. Any traveller of the region foolish enough to pick one of the apples would have it turn to smoke and ashes in his hand--a sure sign of God's eternal displeasure with those who would succumb to physical temptation at the site of His retribution.

And finally, no study of fabulous plants would be complete without mention of the Zieba tree, a huge, shingle-barked growth that supported in its lower branches a nest of bare bosomed men & women. Like all those who choose to believe in the tales of these incredible plants, the humans reposing in the Zieba tree spend their days sitting exalted in fantasy, contemplating in wonder all things seen and unseen
.

Note the 'dust and ashes' reference which is a nice correlation of disintegrating Oak Apples, also the reference to 'knowledge'
But a very interesting find is the word Gallows, this was used because in Biblical times if someone was to be killed for a wrongdoing then he was to be hanged from a specific tree - can anyone hazard why and which tree this would be? My guess is it was the holy tree and it was to allow the sinner to die close to god (the Oak).

"gallows
Heb. 'ets, meaning "a tree" (Esther 6:4), a post or gibbet. In Gen. 40:19 and
Deut. 21:22 the word is rendered "tree."

Now you can understand why Apollo and Azzazel are associated with apples and also blasphemous to the Judaic religion. The golden apples of myth are the hidden and sacred knowledge of the tree temples.

Just some information to think about but the most intriguing possibillity of all this is that Europe was the migration destination of the 10 tribes of Israel. You only have to look at how the Druids worshipped trees and stones and the plants they held in regard to see the connection.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Read the following quote and note the highlighted words.

Oak galls are spherical protuberances on the tree; excrescences produced by secretions of the larvae of different insects, who live in them until mature.

Tree = Druid
Gall = Gaul
Larvae = Worm = Worms = Germs = Germans
Druids, Gauls and Germans (Wormans)

Either this is VERY significant or I am completely off my rocker.
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DPCrisp


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Neat stuff, Oakey. Did I miss something or did you not mention the significance of a wasp (a flying creature, no less) breaking out of an 'inanimate' gall? That's on a par with scarabs born from dung balls and look how potent a symbol that is!

Apple is not a fruit as such but a term. It can also be attributed to anything growing from a stalk on a tree.

So, 'apply' (stick sthg onto sthg) means "apple-y" (or vice versa)?

Birch through Elder... "Are you happy with what you have achieved since Birch?"

Birch {man's best friend} sounds like birth?

Any traveller of the region foolish enough to pick one of the apples would have it turn to smoke and ashes in his hand

Sure sounds like a gall, but also like a puffball (fungus)?

the Zieba tree, a huge, shingle-barked growth that supported in its lower branches a nest of bare bosomed men & women.

Sounds like chimps? A blissful existence is associated with not having to till the fields...

Tree = Druid

Yup, that's implicit in Oakey's post. {Is the pun intended?}

Gall = Gaul

Yup, that's explicit in one of Oakey's other posts (on Gaul, Wales, etc.).

Larvae = Worm = Worms = Germs = Germans

Worm means snake or serpent, with a mass of mythological meaning (recently alluded to with Ormesby, wherever that was...). I dunno the specifics of the case, but German = Serpent People wouldn't surprise me at all; although German/germane is supposed to mean sibling/related, as though it was someone else's name for a related tribe.

Perhaps "worm" came to be applied to maggoty things by association (via galls) with Germans, rather than the other way 'round.

Haven't heard of this before:
germander: med.L germandra, -drea (cf. OFr. gemandree, Fr. germandrée), alt. of gamandrea (cf. G Gamander) ult. f. Gk khamaidrus lit. 'ground-oak', f. khamai on the ground + drus oak.
{Doncha just love that glib "ultimately from Greek..."?}

This etymology might be right, but "German Tree" and ander = man are calling out... Serpent Man? Is it significant that man lives on the ground, as opposed to in Heaven? Or on the ground of Mother Earth? Anyone wanna bet when double (or multiple) meaning was invented?
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Ishmael


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Worm means snake or serpent, with a mass of mythological meaning (recently alluded to with Ormesby, wherever that was...). I dunno the specifics of the case, but German = Serpent People wouldn't surprise me at all; although German/germane is supposed to mean sibling/related, as though it was someone else's name for a related tribe. Perhaps "worm" came to be applied to maggoty things by association (via galls) with Germans, rather than the other way 'round.

I did not sense that the Gall to Gaul connection was at all implied in the previous post. I do not believe it was. I believe I made the connection.

As for Germs to Worms, this is a connection I long suspected. Ever since I read of the "Diet of Worms" as a kid in Bible Study class. We already know that G = W so the Germans were obviously really just Wermans. As "Worms" in Germany is spelled with an "o" I feel confident making the "e" an "o" and rendering the word as "Wormans" or just plain and simple "Worms."

Thus, we have three peoples from Europe, in conflict with Rome: The Trees, the Galls and the Worms. And the mythology and science agree on a relationship between Trees, Galls and Worms: a worm infects a tree and produces a gall (does this tell us the relative genealogy of the three peoples?).

I maintain that the most intuitive association of "worms" is with the small kind -- such as larv'e. Serpents are sometimes called worms (or "wurms") it is true. Nevertheless, I think the word to have always been primarily applied to the smaller variety of creepy-crawlers. In fact, it is from the same G to W association that the name "germ" came to be applied to the very, very tiny little worms floating in water, when a drop was first examined under a microscope.

germander: 'ground-oak'

Sounds to me that the word "ander" here has a double meaning, both "man" and "oak." A "germ-ander" (or "worm-ander") is a man infested with worms. Perhaps that is what the oak tree was seen to be in some sense: a worm-man or "germ-man:" a "german."
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DPCrisp


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In fact, it is from the same G to W association that the name 'germ' came to be applied to the very, very tiny little worms floating in water, when a drop was first examined under a microscope.

Germen is Latin for seed or sprout, so this sense has been current for a very long time... and was eventually applied to micro-organisms in the nineteenth century.

The germ or sprout of a seed looks like a worm... or a worm looks like a seed germ. Screw threads are called worms from their resemblance, too: coiling or spiraling... like the undulations of a serpent... or the movements of maggots and worms. Movement, especially confused or chaotic, is also in the meanings of war, whorl, worse...

Sprouting, growing, giving birth are certainly to be associated with snakes, maggots, galls... and wames/wombs... and the sibling sense of german(e) is connected here.

Maybe Germans were called worms by their enemies. Maybe Worms, with its deep history, was considered a birthplace... maybe of (a particular group of) German people...As ever, there is a close cluster of meanings... but who can say which came first?

And, of course, wer/were means man (as does ander)... Wander is related wand, wend, wind... wander far... far = war? Wonder = wunder, undr... under, like the ground... Worry, fear; warray, war, far... Beware, warned, wary, take care of your wares and wards... Worm, womb, woman, wife, wave, weave... We could play word association all day.
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Oakey Dokey



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Isn't it amazing how it all becomes clear with a little backstep to reassess what we have already learnt? It has been staring us in the face for a while and I cannot for the life of me find one place that has made the full connection between all the 'coincidences'. This is like the holy grail of northern peoples, their religions and practices are similar for a reason. Also that very reason was why the Roman church fiddled the Biblical texts to reflect these inherent factors. It's no wonder the Romans felt these Druids such a danger to the newly established state church.

Dan, yes I have mentioned wasps before (bees). I do not think it a coincidence that royalty has traditionally been associated with bees (wasps). Including the Merovingians.

And yes, Ish, the connection between tree and man is prevalent throughout texts and stories. The Bible is inundated with references to people being likened to trees. There is actually a Jewish New Year of trees (although they have a few New Years) called B'Shevat or Tu B'Shevat, no-one seems to know why it exists except for some archaic tradition of ageing a tree's usefulness.

And in Deuteronomy 20:19 When thou shalt besiege a city a long time, in making war against it to take it, thou shalt not destroy the trees thereof by forcing an axe against them: for thou mayest eat of them, and thou shalt not cut them down (for the tree of the field is man's life) to employ them in the siege:

There is also an interpretation of the naming of Peter in the Bible that ends up being 'Simon of the Wood' or something but I've lost my reference. Can anyone else find it? It might mean first of the wood (forest) or similar.
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Ishmael


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Of course, the echo between "Worman" and "Woman" is almost too obvious -- but what can it mean???

I am reminded of the Garden of Eden again. Here we have a woman, a tree, an apple (or "gall") and a worm.
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Oakey Dokey



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It's all a little difficult to filter but there is definitely something in it all.
The Trinity in many languages is based around the male, female and God. A lot of Trinities have these themes and it seems that the tree religion has its male and female forms at the very least (tree = male God) and the stone (female). The missing connection, which I'm trying to work on, is the third in the Trinity -- which I currently believe is that the tree is in fact the male, not the 'god', but lightning is the God linking all three.

For instance Jesus named Simon, the disciple, 'Peter' (I got this wrong earlier, my head spins when trying to interpret these things), the name Peter is actually a title given to him - it means Rock (stone) and there are many references to meeting God near trees (oaks) with an altar (stone). The interpretation taken by many is that to build a church (the mother/feminine aspect) you need a rock. Peter (Shim'on/simon) is attributed with starting the Church of Christ.

The most interesting thing I've found out is that the Kabbalah lists God as a Trinity and equates them to feminine and masculine. For instance, God as Yahweh is the military or masculine aspect but there are others, but it's damn difficult to pin it down. But it seems as much as the Druids operated a Trinity and held 3 to be sacred (as did Northern European religions) so does ancient Israel (not necessarily Judaism). I cannot however see if the translation of secret wisdom (Kabbalah) equates to oak except to say that Kabbalah can be spelt Quaballa or Quballa and quercus is the Latin version of Oak. It's an odd concept to get your head around (Trinity) but if you delve deeper it seems like a religion based on philosophy seems to have been both very advanced and abundant in ancient times.

And if anyone can make sense of the two aspects of Kabbalah please let me know. I'm going to burn out quite a few brain cells trying to get to grips with it.

An interesting way to witness the church's reaction to a true Trinity religion would be to investigate the practices and persecution of the Cathars, the name itself speaks of the lionesc association of royalty but I cannot get the information at hand at the moment (can't remember the link between cats and Cathars HELP!!!) But I've often wondered if the witches' association with cats was due to the heretical witchcraft they saw this religion as?
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DPCrisp


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I am reminded of the Garden of Eden again. Here we have a woman, a tree, an apple (or "gall") and a worm.

Symbols of life and knowledge... What is Eve's reaction to tasting the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge? Is it bitter?

The Trinity in many [religions?] is based around the male, female and God. At the risk of stating the obvious, they are the polar opposites whose dynamic interplay is the world and the non-polar, unifying principle that transcends them both. All gods being one God. Yin, Yang and Tao. Mind, Body, Spirit. The Problem of Evil in the Christian church comes from confusing All-Good God, who is obviously distinct from All-Bad God, with Neither-Good-Nor-Bad God. I take it it is no accident that three = tree (or tree = three).

tree male... stone female

What's that stuff about Ba'al and his(?) companion...?
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Jaq White



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Oakey, it's interesting that you say the tree = male and the stone = female. I had my own theory on Stone Henge and Wood Henge, partly due to thinking that the wood was feminine (growing) and the stone was masculine (fixed).

I was wondering if the 3 that you refer to in the Druid belief system, might actually be related to the triple goddess rather than a trinity in the traditional sense. The triple goddess was the virgin, the maiden (the fertile woman if you like) and the crone (old woman). And this was very important in the natural annual cycle. As you rightly point out though, 3 is a most important number in Celtic stories and myths and if you've read the Mabinogian, you'll notice how often things come in threes!

But aside from the Triple Goddess, the number 4 for the 4 elements is also most important. I was once told that Wiccans are distinguished from Druids because they refer to/honour only 3 elements. But I haven't found this among people I've met. I will look into this some more.

Most ideas on trinity that I've come across in ancient religions refer to the masculine, the feminine and the child - the masculine is the fixed, the feminine is the fluid or spirit, and the union produces the 3rd aspect, which tends to be us in our most perfect/pure state, or the son that perpetually challenges/succeeds the father, during the natural cycle of birth- life- death- re-birth. Looking again at the Celtic or Druidic ideas of trinity, The Green Man possibly represents this 3rd aspect, and I have this explanation saved in my notes that is probably the best I've come across to explain the concept.

The Green Man was an image of the Natural State of Personified Self that dwells within the Forces that collectively comprises the Earth itself. That this Image of a Face , represented , as an example, One of the Realities, that always exists within the Earth Forces. That Mankind is in fact an Inherent Conscious Force Charge that dwells within the Environmental Forces that do equal , collectively, as a combined range of powers, though some of these Powers are beyond the powers of an Eye composed of Hydrogen and Oxygen...Water.

As far as I know, it seems most likely that the word Cathar comes from the Greek katharos, meaning white/pure. They were also known as Albiguensians; their "capital" if you like, was Albi, in the Languedoc and Albi also means white/pure. Here's one view:

It was this essentially spiritual insistence on purity, in relation to a world totally evil and diabolical, which gave rise retrospectively to a probably false etymology of the word Cathar, which has been said to derive from a Greek word meaning 'pure'. In fact 'Cathar' comes from a German word the meaning of which has nothing to do with purity. - Emmanuel Le Roy Ladurie, Montaillou

Take a look at this page for some insights into the Cathars (it's a good site because it always presents both sides to every argument!) and they give one explanation as to why the Cathars were associated with Cats.

It seems almost certain today that 'Cathars' is more comparable to an insult and would mean 'cat worshippers' or 'catists' which is supported by the use of the adjective 'catier' by a Flemish chronicler whose name escapes me at the moment and would derive from the Low German ketter (cat); also the German translation of the word 'heresy' is die Ketzerel, same root. The heretics are, in the iconography of the moralized Bibles of the XIth century, almost always accompanied by cats, symbol of evil for all of medieval Christendom. Nicolas Gouzy of the Centre d'tudes Cathares (Center of Cathar Studies)

(private E-mail communication to Dennis Stallings, May 22, 1997 - Catharism, Levitov, and the Voynich Manuscript
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Mick Harper
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A snipperette that caught my eye:

It has been suggested that the very word Apollo is derived from the Celtic word Apol meaning apple. To both cultures, apples were the sacred fruits of the Gods.

Or possibly Apollo is derived from the English word "apple". Anyone got any British/and/or Apple stories? Stonehenge was a Temple of Apollo, according to the Greeks, so does that make Britain the earliest site for anything Apollonian?
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DPCrisp


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Stonehenge was a Temple of Apollo, according to the Greeks, so does that make Britain the earliest site for anything Apollonian?

Do you know something specific on this, or are you thinking of that description of Hyperboreans swanning around in a "circular temple" all day and leading an idyllic life (complete with two harvests a year)?

As far as I know, there are too many "circular temples" in the British Isles to be able to pinpoint this one.

NB. The "Geographical reconstruction of the Periplous of Himilco" in John Collis' The Celts: Origins, Myths & Inventions has Ireland labeled HIERNI / INSULA SACRA.

(Dunno if that's a typo for Hiberni or if Hier- is the same as Ire-/Eire.)

NB. It is always assumed round these parts that the Biblical Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge was an apple.

NB. Apple cores are pentagrams.

NB. Heracles, Atlas and the Golden Apples is "set" in the far west... the Pillars of Heracles... the Pyrenees named for Heracles' daughter, buried there...
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