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J Robinson
In: The Shires
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I enjoyed your post Wizard, and follow all your explanations but would you help me out? I'm not doubting you, but can you give me any references for the goat ingesting business and the ritual that followed, or is that entirely your own (excellent) theory?
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| All very simplified and very boring -- unless you have experienced entering the light via some of the above processes, then it all makes sense and the philosophies of Cabala and the stories contained in the old testament, the new testament and virtually every major religion demonstrate a concerted effort to confuse everybody and prevent anyone but a chosen few from a very enriching experience and truth, or is just mass conrol? |
All very impressive and completely fascinating. Does amanita muscaria like forest clearings and (sacred) groves? Is it easily cultivated? If so, what's to stop an enterprising peasantry from growing their own supply in the back yard, if they have such a thing? (I've got a German/Silesian friend who's rather knowledgeable about fungi. Pick-Your-Own mushrooms seems to be more widely practised in the countryside of Central Europe than in the home counties).
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J Robinson wrote:
| I enjoyed your post Wizard, and follow all your explanations but would you help me out? I'm not doubting you, but can you give me any references for the goat ingesting business and the ritual that followed, or is that entirely your own (excellent) theory? |
In short, it is currently my theory. Based on Myths, Legends, Religions, Rituals, Place names and Tribe names, I have unpicked to the best of my ability a weave of misinformation and obstruction. My conclusion is the Goat/Sheep/Lamb was the favoured animal for entheogenic ritual, performed each month at night during each moon phase.
Along with this conclusion is my theory that the goat entheogen ritual and culture emanated in the Northern Hemisphere, within the geographic areas of Ireland, Britain, Northern France, Dogga area before it sank, Netherlands, Denmark and Northern Germany between 20'000 and 4'500 BC.
I believe the North European Ancients perfected a means of entering the light/holy spirit/Mimir's Well and many other descriptions via goat entheogen ritual and meditation. This formed a culture of 'rebirth beliefs' mirrored by the Sun and Moon re-birthing and the Flora and Fauna re-birthing during the spring season. Northern Europe providing an unprecedented abundance of new life during this season (Eden concept).
The Mediterranean region did not have the specific raw entheogenic materials, nor did it have the contrast of winter, spring and summer; nor did it or has such a magical tide for Moses (anthropomorphic moon ritual) to move the waters. The Mediterranean and Fertile Crescent can be made to fit the construct but the edges of the square peg have to be battered off.
Hatty wrote:
| All very impressive and completely fascinating. Does amanita muscaria like forest clearings and (sacred) groves? Is it easily cultivated? If so, what's to stop the peasantry from growing their own supply in the yard? |
Hatty,
Peasantry ... you, me and the unfortunate masses..... There is nothing to stop the peasantry BUT as you know the powers of control have stopped at nothing to prevent the masses from knowing.
In answer to your question people have been persecuted, brutally tortured and burned alive for practising ancient rituals passed down over millennia. The secrets have been utterly obscured and twisted making the apple -- avol -- evil ... and the Goat the symbol of Satan (Saturn). Today LAW stops the current peasantry from mushroom preparation, storage and consumption. I think it is considered a Class A drug. Obviously you couldn't keep a goat and then sacrifice it, what would the neighbours think?
However, I know where they like to grow and you could call them sacred groves I suppose. The practice is perfectly straight forward, when you know how. I am not suggesting you buy a goat by the way. Entering the light is also straightforward ...another time perhaps.
Britain IS - WAS the land of Apples -- Avalond or Ael land (pronounced Atland-is) The apple/Amanita muscaria became the Major British export of the ancient world. The Monna 'x he'h (monachy), M'ox he'h (Mackie), Magi according to accent, derivation or scribe error became very powerful in areas where their merchandise could not grow.
The Pharaohs may have been Brits (Red Hair) Amen -- Attention -- Aten Scinn -- Aten Shines -- the Sun of God and the Holy spirit Shines. Some still stand to attention and Sol Yute (sun goat) the Monna 'x he'h. The Deru Witt (druids/Davids/Preists) may have been fair haired (shaved off during ritual-Balder the shining ones) Just a theory, Hatty? You may begin to view Red Heads and Blondes in a different way? Very un-PC though, Arian master race and all that. Aries is a Ram isn't it? What about the Aries Stock race of people, Aristocracy, aren't they something to do with the Monna 'x he'h?
The Apple entheogens were exported in boxes ( ox ) of inner light, ark of the covenant, simply put (Very Big Box of Mushrooms)
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| Primarily they can be found in pine and birch woodland |
Ah, birch trees. Isn't book supposed to derive from birch, very knowledge-related. And birth. Not to mention broomsticks. Clearly a northern habitat anyway, which bears out the Arian dominance theme and puts the story of the sacrifice of the ram in obedience to Jehovah's will in a whole new perspective. (Speaking of perspective, can someone get the screen back into manageable proportions?)
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admin
Librarian
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| (Speaking of perspective, can someone get the screen back into manageable proportions?) |
People putting in extremely long URLS (or for that matter pix that are too wide) will be taken out and shot. It may seem harsh but it's for your own good in the long run.
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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| I've come across trees with coins embedded in them in the Yorkshire Dales, specially in a place called Janet's Foss |
A foss is something dug-out, so presumably is, or is akin to, a well.
| a 'money tree' which is on an island in Loch Maree, situated by a well and therefore presumably a sacred space. |
(Was it in the Chaucerian discussions?) I/we came across an old poem about a woman/maiden in a field with a tree and well... Can't quite remember, but it's purely sexual, as illustrated in this album cover.
Not too wide, I hope.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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How can you tell this is sexual, Dan?
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Hands up anybody who's actually seen an ejaculating vagina.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Bringing this back to the subject of oakapples which it is meant to be about, I read this lengthy but relevant piece from a website that claims English predated the Romans
http://www.proto-english.org/index.html
However the article itself is entirely academic (though curiously not in academese)
Distribution of chloroplast DNA variation in British oaks the influence of postglacial colonisation and human management
E. Cottrell, et al.
We know that the European oak (Quercus Robur and Quercus Petraea - typical British oaks) survived the ice age in the south of France and the north of Spain, the ice age refuge of Ruisko (DNA revealed that 98% came from that region). Just after the Younger Dryas period climatic conditions in the north of Europe became suitable for oaks to grow there.
We suppose that the oak spread itself naturally to the north. But there are problems concerning the arrival of the oak in Britain and Ireland. We know the Ireland was cut off from the British mainland by the rising sea almost immediately after the warming up of the climate. Therefore, we can safely accept that big trees with rather heavy seeds like oak and beech were imported into Ireland by humans.
But did the oak reach Britain by itself or was the tree imported? The ice age ended around 8000 BC. The land bridge over the English Channel crumbled around 6500 BC. So the oak had barely some 1500 years to spread itself from the south of France to Britain. As this distance can be calculated as some 1000 km, then this means that the oak spread at an average pace of 750 meters per year. The land bridge probably disintegrated slowly, impassable gaps might have appeared as early as 7000 BC. This means that the continental oaks had even less time to reach Britain.
Biologists accept the fact that forests expand in general at a pace between 250-500 meter per year. Acorns however are amongst the heaviest tree seeds in Europe and on top of that, oaks need suitable soil to grow. An oak will not grow well everywhere. The soil must have been, so to say, prepared by other trees and then oaks 'take over'.
We know that jays eat acorns and that they spread them. But no serious study has been done about how far and in which direction the jays disperse acorns. Does the territory of the jays comprise parts of the forest without oaks? Or do they limit their territory to those parts where oaks do grow? Were they responsible for the fast spreading of oaks?
We know that native Americans in the Californian region did not practice agriculture before the white man came, but also that they 'cultivated' oaks, for instance by clearing with controlled fire the shrubs, the undergrowth in the oak forests.
Acorns are edible, but it is necessary to wash out the excess tannin with (a lot of) water. It is well possible that agriculture in western Europe was not entirely new to the indigenous population when the real farmers moved in. The native Europeans could have practiced similar habits. They could have carried acorns with them during the Younger Dryas seasonal migrations (and shortly after) to the north.
Those acorns must have been considered to be reserve food, in case the hunt was not successful. Acorns remain in good condition for a long time. At the end of the season, they threw away most of the redundant acorns, and then traveled south, for a new acorn harvest awaited them. At the beginning of the Holocene, the climate warmed up considerably and so the wasted acorns had their chance to grow on the spot.
There is a strong possibility that this is how oaks were imported into Britain and Ireland. Not the farmers imported the oak, the migrating hunters-gatherers did. It's even not unthinkable that they deliberately sow acorns. It's after all one of the easiest things to do and the young trees do not require attention. After a few years local acorns could then be harvested. They also must have been very aware of the excellent quality of the oak wood. Planting acorns was probably an excellent exercise with maximum yield for minimum effort.
There is more: a small proportion (2%) of the British oaks originated from the Balkan region, the ice-age refuge of Ivan. The authors of the DNA study propose that the oaks with 'Balkan-DNA' were imported by humans. Those oaks, I propose, were imported by the first farmers. They colonized the south of France (and imported Occitan) and some moved on to the British isles, with 'their' oaks. | |
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Chad
In: Ramsbottom
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This all ties in very nicely with our pigeon / dove thread.
By the way.......
| Hands up anybody who's actually seen an ejaculating vagina. |
I take it you missed that particular documentary? - - Never mind I'm sure they'll repeat it on Channel Five, or somewhere.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| This all ties in very nicely with our pigeon / dove thread. |
Yes, funnily enough it crossed my bird brain that migrating flocks might well disperse seeds but am not enough of an ornithologist to know if they traverse vast distances with or without offloading seeds. Oaks in Ireland from northern Spain? I blame the Basques.
| I take it you missed that particular documentary? - - Never mind I'm sure they'll repeat it on Channel Five, or somewhere. |
It was on Five, so popular in fact that it's been repeated at least once already. Comes under Education.
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Chad
In: Ramsbottom
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Yes that follows. - - I guessed Mick was uneducated.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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A friend sent me an interesting link to an article about a purportedly disease-resistant apple
http://www.philipcoppens.com/anglesey.html)
| In 1998, some windfall apples from under a gnarled old tree were collected by someone who noticed that the fruit and the tree were free of disease, which is a very unusual occurrence. He, nor anyone else, was able to recognise the type of apple and hence, a specimen was sent to the National Fruit Collection at Brogdale (Kent, UK), where Dr Joan Morgan declared that the fruit and the tree were unique. The media jumped on the discovery and called it "the rarest tree in the world' and some newspapers underlined the connection between Bardsey Island and Avalon, the 'island of apples', to write their headlines. |
'Historical' apples are often supposed to be better than modern varieties but I can't help wondering if that's nostalgia for the good old days. Seems rather unlikely that a disease-free species would be allowed to disappear unless it tasted awful or was an accident that went unnoticed till the Brogdale expert's test.
The Isle of Avalon is Ynys Enlli in Welsh, which can be translated as Isle of Glass rather than apples.
| Despite making headline news, few facts are known about the apple. How the apple tree came to be there, is unknown, though the variety is believed to date back to the 13th century, grown by monks. Whether the tree is self fertile or requires pollen from another apple tree, is unknown. The tree's age is also unknown and the last person to be born on the island, when in his seventies, said the three had always been there. The house next to the tree had been built by Lord Newborough in the 1870s -- drawing a rather interesting comparison to the original edition of The Wicker Man, which focuses heavily on the apple theme and Lord Summerisle. Equally interesting was that the hillside above the house has a cave, known as the Hermit's Cave, where Merlin is reputedly buried. |
There are a couple of other links but they're just more of the same:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/1009618.stm
and
http://icnorthwales.icnetwork.co.uk/news/regionalnews/page.cfm?objectid=13520729&method=full&siteid=50142
[She also said "it's a fact that mistletoe is particularly likely to grow on apple trees....which is a supportive, if vague, association with the Druids and apples.....". First I've heard of it; mistletoe in these 'ere parts grows on the tallest trees around and is a nuisance not a blessing as it kills the host eventually. Could be the mistletoe rather than the apples which is disease-resistant]
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Jorn
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My guess is that magic apples are legends from before the development of grafting, as only about one in a million(?) apple trees will give sweet apples, if you grow your apple trees from seed.
All fruits are meant for consumption by some animal, and those that produce toxins poisonous to unwanted species, will out compete those that don't.
Chili is perhaps the most famous example, in that it "wants" to be eaten by birds who are unaffected by the capsaicin. Birds eats the fruits and don't crush the seed, and shit the seed out somewhere else. Mammals tends to crush the seed, so they get the burning sensation.
Bitter almonds contains cyanide, so if you find some animal that are more or less immune to this, you have found your seed carrier. Sometimes humans came over sweet almonds that they also could eat, and these trees are the ancestor to the modern almond. (I took a look, and squirrels are immune to cyanide poisoning)
For the oak and its acorns, they taste bitter for humans and probably to many other mammals, but most likely not to Squirrels, as it forgets where it has hidden its stockpile, and are thus spreading the acorns.
The squirrels are called an acorn=oak-korn in most Germanic languages as they are, according to lore, supposed to have grown from them.
Like with the sweet almonds, sometimes you get an oak that make sweet acorns, that even humans could eat.
Depending on genetics, getting sweet variants to breed true differs with the species, where almonds are probably the easiest, as it seems to be the earliest domesticated species. (That grafting is mentioned in the Old Testament is for me proof of its young age)
Before I continue, I want to say something about the runes Hagal and Laug. (NB No nazi mysticism)
Hagal mean hail, and seems to have been to rune to indicate that something was holy. Why they saw hail as in a hailstorm as something holy I don't know, as it destroyed crops.
Laug has no word in English anymore, but you find it in many old English words, like law, leek, lake and bunch of them in the old crafts dyeing, beermaking etc. Water is not Laug, but water mixed with something is. Water that is flowing is Laug though, and Laws as something that flowed from your ancestors is also Laug. Ur-Laug was the flow of wyrd, and means bouth fate the primal law.
The Leek have layer upon layer but no kernel, and was often mixed with water to create a laug.
I am now ready for the word Holy=Heilag=Heil-Laug, that what is is part of the "holy stream".
Laugardag for Saturday could thus mean washing day or the day for Law or even ancestor day, as we flow from our ancestors.
So when it comes to the holy apple trees and the holy oaks, it might have been that these were sweet varieties, that the Germanics saw as heil-laug, that is part of the holy-streams influencing! the world.
The Laug concept is also found in Latin or Greek, but it not as clear as in the Norse sources IIRC, and it is a long time since I read about it, so I don't remember the examples I found. "In the beginning was the Logos" at the start of the Bible, is one I remember though.
I think Latin is macaronic language, but ancient Greek seems to be an original, so it would be fun to see if that language follows the runic concept with the Greek alphabet.
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