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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| I have a feeling that grafting techniques might be relatively recent developments. |
I have a feeling that when people have a feeling as opposed to being able to look it up and saying, "John Q Thingy invented the grafting technique in 1735," that we are probably dealing with something invented in vast antiquity.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | Because everytime I look, the oak (which I, like everybody else here, thought was 'just a tree') turns out to be a whole tribe of trees, all of whom seem to have incredibly useful features. Now maybe this is true of all trees. or maybe the oak is just naturally unique like that, but it strikes me that it might also be a sign of ancient domestication. In other words everything that later taxonomists can recognise as a type of oak is merely a domesticated-gone-feral artificially altered oak (or whatever is the next tree along in the table) |
It's a fabulous idea and would appear to make much sense of the ancient religious reverence for the Oak. But aside from some limited and alleged healing properties in Oak Galls, and the obvious usefulness of Oak wood in contruction, I am personally aware of no other "useful" properties of Oak.
Now if I suspected ancient tree-breeding, the first thing I'd look for is the tallest trees I could find growing near a coast line. Nothing beats a tall, sturdy mast for a sea-faring people.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Mick's right about the antiquity of botanical studies
Theophrastus, (born 371 BCE) called the Father of Botany, might better be called the Father of Horticultural Science....
His discussion of grafting is very up-to-date and with little editing would be appropriate for a modern manual.
The ancient Greeks were more rational in their observations and studies of plant life than the Romans who were more interested in plant lore than scientific enquiry, especially the medicinal uses of plants.
The oak is one of the sturdiest trees of all so even if it doesn't have multiple uses it would be valued for its timber in any form of construction whether buildings or ships' masts. Most oaks take decades if not longer to reach maturity, not a tree to be felled without a special reason.
The sea shore isn't usually the best location for thriving plant life, too exposed and salty for most species. It's tempting to see a correlation between the Celts (Druids?) on the wet western littoral more favourable to the growth of trees such as oaks than the dry eastern coastline.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| I am personally aware of no other "useful" properties of Oak. |
Two that I do know about are
1. Oak is the nearest thing, in this softwood world of ours, to teak and mahogony ie as really tough-as-old-boots stuff suitable for permanent immersion in water.
2. Oak (in the form of cork-oaks) is the nearest thing, in this hardwood world of ours, to balsa ie floats on anything and suitable for permanent immersion in water.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Oak bark was also traditionally used to extract tannin in the production of leather.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Mick Harper wrote: | 1. Oak is the nearest thing, in this softwood world of ours, to teak and mahogony ie as really tough-as-old-boots stuff suitable for permanent immersion in water.
2. Oak (in the form of cork-oaks) is the nearest thing, in this hardwood world of ours, to balsa ie floats on anything and suitable for permanent immersion in water. |
Build the ships out of Oak. Build the masts out of Birch?
But the trees seem revered by cultures that appear anything but sea-faring.
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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Did we do TREE = TRUE?
Oh: Etymonline thought of it, too:
tree: O.E. treo {Trio!} , treow "tree" (also "wood"), from P.Gmc. *trewan (cf. O.Fris. tre, O.S. trio {Trio!} , O.N. tre, Goth. triu), from PIE *deru-/*doru- "oak" (cf. Skt. dru "tree, wood," daru "wood, log;" Gk. drys "oak," doru "spear;" O.C.S. drievo "tree, wood;" Serb. drvo "tree," drva "wood;" Rus. drevo "tree, wood;" Czech drva; Pol. drwa "wood;" Lith. derva "pine wood;" O.Ir. daur, Welsh derwen "oak," Albanian drusk "oak"). Importance of the oak in mythology is reflected in the recurring use of words for "oak" to mean "tree." In O.E. and M.E., also "thing made of wood," especially the cross of the Crucifixion and a gallows (cf. Tyburn tree, gallows mentioned 12c. at Tyburn, at junction of Oxford Street and Edgware Road, place of public execution for Middlesex until 1783). {"Tree" for cross or gallows is evidently far more subtle than they realise.}
true: O.E. triewe (W.Saxon), treowe {Treow-e, tree-y, like a tree?} (Mercian) {They imagine triewe and treowe to be different words!?} "faithful, trustworthy," from P.Gmc. *trewwjaz "having or characterized by good faith" (cf. O.Fris. triuwi, Du. getrouw, O.H.G. gatriuwu, Ger. treu, O.N. tryggr, Goth. triggws "faithful, trusty"), perhaps ultimately from PIE *dru- "tree," on the notion of "steadfast as an oak." Cf., from same root, Lith. drutas "firm," Welsh drud, O.Ir. dron "strong," Welsh derw "true," O.Ir. derb "sure." {That's a funny one: derw, "d-roo", is just a way of pronouncing true, but the Irish has a B in it? We can make sense of it with W = V and V = B, but that suggests the difference is literary. ('Course, V/W is a particular enigma.)}
I dunno about "perhaps ultimately from PIE on the notion of steadfast as an oak": apart from true meaning straight, erect, right (Cf. arbor: [Fr. arbre tree, principal axis...] an axle, beam, or spindle on which something revolves...) , this is a simple case of U = E/I.
I keep coming across this rule, but thus = this and burgh = bury are the only ones I can bring to... keyboard. (Can you hear a Scotsman saying one and sounding like the other?)
{I just came across shittle = shuttle.}
Compare the senses of true with rule/ruler (straight-edge and the lines you draw with it in geometry) and rule/ruler (law, order, orders...)
Never mind what Etymonline says, it misses the point:
rule (n.) "principle or maxim governing conduct," from O.Fr. riule, from V.L. *regula, from L. regula "straight stick, bar, ruler, pattern," related to regere "to rule, straighten, guide".
rule (v.) "to control, guide, direct," from O.Fr. riuler, from L. regulare. Legal sense is recorded from 1425...
{They didn't spot that legal = regal/regular, by the L = R rule.}
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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DPCrisp wrote: tree: O.E. treo {Trio!} , treow "tree" (also "wood"), from P.Gmc. *trewan (cf. O.Fris. tre, O.S. trio {Trio!}
Why does three equal tree?
Could it be that the "Y" symbol is somehow associated with them both? The "Y" has a trunk that branches into two stems, making three spokes from a central hub (also dividing space into three parts). It also look like the quintesential tree acrchitype (minus the leaves).
Any connection?
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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| Why does three equal tree? |
Wireloop might have the answer at his fingertips. All very sacred.
I think first in terms of the roots, trunk and branches interconnecting Earth or the underworld, the surface realm of Men and the Heavens. (Like the 3 levels in Japanese flower arranging.)
Steadfastness, perennial rebirth, proving for people's needs... also all very sacred. Plus the roots kinda mirror the branches, but in another world... Plus branching represents hierarchy, such as in the tripartite soul... Trees have something to do with gaining wisdom, passing through doorways: the doorway separates 2 sides but is itself on neither side...
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Ishmael wrote: | But the trees seem revered by cultures that appear anything but sea-faring. |
In a programme about the journey of a Victorian explorer, Thomas Pennent, across the Scottish highlands we were shown a 'money tree' which is on an island in Loch Maree, situated by a well and therefore presumably a sacred space.
I've come across trees with coins embedded in them in the Yorkshire Dales, specially in a place called Janet's Foss associated with fairies (no, not that sort) near Malham. No-one in the group seemed to know whence came this tradition but it could be connected with throwing coins into wells. Interesting that trees were (are?) used in this way in specific locations.
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What About Them Apples?
I thought, as a newcomer, with my own amateur theories, I would throw the following into the melting pot for discussion.
Ishmael wrote:
| As for Germs to Worms, this is a connection I long suspected. Ever since I read of the "Diet of Worms" as a kid in Bible Study class. We already know that G = W so the Germans were obviously really just Wermans. As "Worms" in Germany is spelled with an "o" I feel confident making the "e" an "o" and rendering the word as "Wormans" or just plain and simple "Worms." |
DPCrisp wrote:
| Germen is Latin for seed or sprout, so this sense has been current for a very long time... and was eventually applied to micro-organisms in the nineteenth century. |
Ishmael wrote:
DPCrisp wrote: tree: O.E. treo {Trio!} , treow "tree" (also "wood"), from P.Gmc. *trewan (cf. O.Fris. tre, O.S. trio {Trio!}
Why does three equal tree? |
Druid - Deru witt = true knowledge and tree of knowledge, roots, trunk, branches. Amanita.
Deru derivatives = tree, three, truce, true/truth, troth/betroth, trust etc.
Witt derivatives = weid, wyrd (Anglo-Saxon), witt (knowledge), wiss, wise, wisdom, white - the colour white associated with spirit, inner light, moon light, sun light, of the three primordial gods:
1. The Sun the saviour, for without the sun we cannot exist.
2. The Moon, the bringer of light in darkness, the mover of the waters.
3. The inner light, god in man and man re-birthed in god's light.
The Sun is reborn daily and yearly, the Moon is reborn moonthly and man is reborn in ritual, moonathly.
As god made the Universe or is the Universe, God created the sun (his sun) in his likeness (ba'all of light) to save mankind. Where would we be without the Sun (of God), nothing on earth would exist, therefore the sun of god is our saviour.
The sun of god also has his 12 followers, the moonaths and the four seasons, MMLJ -- Mathew, Mark, Luke and John.
1. Maeshowe, Moshe, Moses (womb/waters/birth/rebirth/tide/osmosis) = Mathew.
2. Monna ax, Moon Ark, Monarch =M'ark Mark.
3. laeca (light) Luke.
4. Scinn, Scion, Sean, Zion, John = Shine.
Apple derivative = Ava, land - land of apples (Amanita) = Avalon.
Apple derivative = æpel land - Noble Land (Nob - Amanita = æpel lan/Atlan)
Apple -- Amanita muscaria or Fly Agaric
The Amanita muscaria is toxic and to avoid toxicity the ancient Breot'o'n's/Bryt'o'n's/Brut'o'n's/Bart'o'n's, fed the mushroom to various animals, including the Stag (white hart), Boar, but primarily the Goat. The male Goat was sacrificed or the female goat milked.
The entheogins or hallucinogens infused throughout the bloodstream; the meat and blood were consumed, bringing about altered states which combined with isolation and meditation allowed the Druid/Deru-witt/(true spiritual knowledge) wise man, wizard to visualise the pinpoint of light (star) and then enter the all-consuming ecstatic light. These rituals were performed at the first moon crescent, up to full moon.
The pinpoint of light seen in deep meditation is the star of Deru witt (true knowledge) sometimes pronounced Dowid (david) particularly Welsh accent and I suppose today we know it as David. David is an anthropomorphic King, not a real person.
Goat word derivatives, Goot (god); Geat as in Swedish Geats (Gate); Goths, Yeat, Hit, Yit as in Yeat Seax (goat sacrifice) pronounced as Yitsacc or Issacc (may god smile -- moon crescent), Yute, Jute, Jud, etc. Place names Uttoxeter( Yute æx etor) Aysgarth (Ass goot) Ascot (Ass goot) Scott ( 'S'gott).
Yitseax is cognate with Hitseax also pronounced Hesus, Jesus and 'Zeus, anthropomorphic man gods (goots). The holy Goat or Holy Lamb.
The so-called lost tribes of Abraham are anthropomorphic tribes, not from the Middle East but originating in the North before Ireland and Britain separated from mainland Europe around 4000BC, (theory)
Feeding the goat the sacred apple, Amanita muscaria, is where scape goat derives. Amanita muscaria is toxic (bitter). The goat is fed the Amanita muscaria and therefore takes the tox-sins.
The goat absorbs and neutralises the mushroom toxins and retains the entheogenic psychoactive substances. The goat is sacrificed and consumed along with the psychoactive substances - this is the body, flesh and blood of the holy lamb or goat.
Yute, Jute Uterus -- Ovum symbolic of Goat horns. The Uterus is shaped as a Goat head and we move onto the womb, rebirth.
Glastonbury maze is symbolic. Simplistically, druid - deru wit -- wit heard -- wisth heard -- wizard initiates penetrate the entrance of the maze, then ceremoonially ascend the hill, they performed the 'apple/Amenita goat' ritual at the summit of the hill. The initiates then descend through the maze and then re-birthed full of inner light and ecstatic experience, then exit via the entrance as reborn.
The same ritual I believe was performed later at Maeshowe http://www.maeshowe.co.uk/maeshoweabout.html. However, the hill becomes a actual man made womb, the precursor to the pyramid for rebirth, except the Egyptians corrupted the knowledge to such an extent that the Pharaohs actually believed they could rebirth into their corpse, which is why embalming became so fashionable with them.
The word Maeshowe, I believe is a derivation and abbreviation of Monna æx heæh (M'æx heæh ) (moon arc or moon arch high) where we get monarchy. Maeshowe is also very close to Moshe (moses) and as we know the moon magically moves the waters dramatically in the northern hemisphere (tide), it does not move the waters to any great degree in the Mediterranean. Monna æx heæh, monarchy, Mackie, Magi (druid-wizard), Mahi (Mary).
Moving on:
English -- a long time ago!
-X =-CS, -sc, acas, e; f: acase, axe, an; f. what is brought to an edge, brought to an end (ultimate) also, axe, axis, arch and ark.
Agaric = æx ric - ric = ruler; æxric = ultimate ruler -- inner god/ God -- the divine inner ball of ecstatic light, light of love, white ghost, holy ghost, inner sun and many other descriptions experienced via consumption of the mushroom, primarily via the goat and other animals; meditation and other rituals.
Adam and Eve are an anthropomorphic construct of the shaft and apple shaped cap of the Fly-Agaric mushroom.
Adam = man (penis) -- Eve/Avol/apple/radiating sun wheel, vagina = female
The shaft or stem of the Fly-Agaric is symbolic of the male penis. When the red fruit (apple) of the Fly-Agaric has matured it flattens and resembles a table, (round table).
Removing the table/cap, the gills and socket are revealed underside symbolising the vagina, and radiating sun wheel.
anthropomorphic variants of Fly-Argaric
Mary Magdalene (Maeshowe -- apple ritual - womb) -- Jesus (Yæt sæx -- Issacc -- Yhæt sæx - hesus -- Jesus -- male - penis)
Guin-eve-re (round table -- cap - female) -- Arthur - æx tor -- arch tower (penis)
Cap ric horn = Cap- Amanita; ric -- ruler; horn -- man (penis) -- goat the lamb -- god in resurrected man, divine light, holy spirit etc.
Aries = Amanita muscaria/Fly Agaric - æx ric Eric (Aries) -- arch ruler -- goat the lamb -- god in resurrected man, divine light, holy spirit etc.
Robin Hood -- Ruben (red) Cap -- Amanita muscaria
Anglo- Saxon -- Ynglaeca Sæx heæh nasse -- Yngla' Sæx O'n'æ heæh pronounced Hoh,Oh - belonging to the light of ultimate knowledge via sacrifice.
Norse - Heieron is a female-goat which eats from the tree of knowledge (L�ra�r) producing milk which contains the psychoactive properties of the Amanita muscaria/Fly Agaric. Resurrection or rebirth is aquired, we may understand this as Gisa (spirit) or Cheese, Original Goat Cheese of the wizards.
Wizard Alchemy also stores Amanita muscaria (the Sæx-red apple) in honey. The psychoactive properties infuse into the honey to produce golden mead, Meadæx pronounced Midus. This was not turning base metal to gold but providing another source of psychoactive Alcho-Holy.
All very simplified and very boring -- unless you have experienced entering the light via some of the above processes, then it all makes sense and the philosophies of Cabala and the stories contained in the old testament, the new testament and virtually every major religion demonstrate a concerted effort to confuse everybody and prevent anyone but a chosen few from a very enriching experience and truth, or is just mass conrol?
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Wizard, this will be your last post if you continue on such an epic scale. What's the hurry? Slowly, slowly, catchee monkey. These monkeys anyway. Can someone with more patience than me say whether anything Wizzo says makes the least sense?
Oh yeah, and welcome. I see you equate Robin Hood with Jesus Christ. Does that make you a pagan or a Christian? I take it that you do not favour the mushroom-infused reindeer-dung being burnt and therefore infused by all sitting round the campfire thesis.
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Mr. Harper, thank you for your warm welcome.
| I see you equate Robin Hood with Jesus Christ. Does that make you a pagan or a Christian? |
I am neither Pagan nor Christian. I find it rather cloisterophobic when confined to convenient name calling.
| I take it that you do not favour the mushroom-infused reindeer-dung being burnt and therefore infused by all sitting round the campfire thesis. |
Many techniques were utilised in order to obtain altered states, including.....taking the piss..
| I see you equate Robin Hood with Jesus Christ. |
Via the use of the primary entheogens, Amanita Muscaria and Psilocybe mushroom the Ancient Holywood script writers produced epic stories which became the foundation of the construct of fictional hero worship, mass control and mass religion.
I equate anthropomorphic Gods such as Hesus, Zeus, Apollo, Jesus, Krishna, Odin/Wodin etc and other historic characters such as, Adam and Eve, Cain and Able, King Arthur and Guinevere, Robin Hood and Maid Marian etc.
In Short -- Apple -- based on Amanita Muscaria.
Apple derivative = Ava, land - land of apples (Amanita) = Avalon.
Apple derivative = æpel land - Noble Land (Nob - Amanita = æpel lan/Atlan)
In Short -- Tree of Knowledge/Life, sacred trees, based on Amanita Muscaria.
In Short -- Liberation from Slavery/Bondage - Psilocybe mushroom.
In Short - Liberty/Freedom/Equality -- Liberty Cap/Spear of Destiny - Psilocybe mushroom.
What About Them Apples - indeed?
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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I take it that you do not favour the mushroom-infused reindeer-dung being burnt and therefore infused by all sitting round the campfire thesis.
Many techniques were utilised in order to obtain altered states, including.....taking the piss.. |
Actually I was citing the (Hamlet's Mill?) thesis that man's intelligence derives from the purely accidental infusion of mind-altering fumes, though your version might explain our atavistic desires for campfires. Veterans of the Origins of Mankind Treasure Hunt will appreciate the importance of reindeer in this context.
By the by, I have been approached recently by a coupla people about doing this Treasure Hunt again. Mostly we have given up on TH's for technical reasons and are busy transforming them into commercial (hah!) DVD's, however I am conscious that the Origins one needs a bit more work if it is to be fit for DVD posterity so what say we do it right here in the barn!
More anon.
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Mick Harper
Is it possible to create Origins of Cult-ure and civilisation within Origins of Mankind Treasure Hunt
For Example:
True Knowledge = Druid = Deru Witt = Dowitt = Dowiss. Did the Ancients of Britain, Dogga and Denmark migrate across to the far East in search of the rising sun taking with them the root Meme of Daoism.
Is Deru Witt or Deru Wiss the root of Daois?
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