What About Them Apples? (History)

[Mick Harper]

It's true that I was just quoting the old "circular temples" thingy--the full piece is here:

http://www.phenomenamagazine.com/0/editorial.asp?aff_id=0&this_cat=Altered+States&action=page&obj_id=1646

[by the by, does anyone know owt about this Emmet J Sweeny character?]

but surely the point is that the Ancient Greeks wouldn't have just made up the Apollonian connection, nor would they have known the huge antiquity of Stonehenge (if that she be). So it is reasonable to say that unless someone can come up with something earlier, Apollo is a presumed British invention.

Are apples a British thing too? That would be neat and, after all, the trad varieties do grow best here. I am sick-to-the-back-teeth of hearing how this was introduced by the Romans and that was imported from the foothills of the Himalyas. Surely something started here? Tabs, spuds, MDA...

[DPCrisp]

Everyone's mythology is chock full of magical, life-giving or life-taking apples, so I'm not sure how apples in British folklore make an unequivocal connection to Britain.

Apollo himself isn't particularly identified with apples is he? Except indirectly: he's somewhat Herculean in killing some guardian dragon (with an arrow*?); he has a lot in common with Athena, who took the Golden Apples from Hercules; and apples symbolise fertility and the Sun.

Anyway, some snippets:

"Miletus:... son of Apollo... was the ancestor of the Milesians (the 'Sons of Mil' of Irish tradition)."

The Encyclopedia of Witches and Witchcraft says "Apples, cultivated in Britain as early as 3000 BC, have a long association with magic, witches and goddess deities... Games of divination with apples were part of the Celtic/Druidic harvest festival of Samhain... Apples and apple peel are used in divination methods common in the British Isles."

"The three Hesperides were goddesses of the sunset. Together with the hundred-headed Drakon Ladon they were appointed to take care of the Tree of the Golden Apples, a wedding gift from Gaia to Hera."
Sunset = West. (I wonder whether Hesp- = west...)

"the Hesperides who guard the rich, golden apples and the trees bearing fruit beyond glorious Okeanos" -Theogony

"Eurystheus ordered Herakles to get golden apples from the Hesperides as an eleventh labour. These apples were not, as some maintain in Libya, but rather were with Atlas among the Hyperboreoi." -Apollodorus

"Atlas ... at earth's uttermost places, near the sweet-singing Hesperides." -Theogony

There's no doubt about it, them Hesperides was round here somewhere. Now why would (how could) the Greeks go on about apples in the extreme west of Europe if we had to wait for the Romans to bring them...?

I was just thinking "Apollo:... a god of the Sun, fertility, light and truth, medicine, music, poetry, fine arts and eloquence" sounds rather like the centaurs (which have some connection to western Europe * and are synonymous with archery), when I came to "Asclepius:... son of Apollo... brought up by the centaur Chiron".

"Atalanta, the fleet-footed maiden, told by an oracle that she would die if she wed, refused to marry unless the suiter could beat her in a foot race. Hippomenes bested Atalanta with the help of Aphrodite, who provided him with three golden apples. Stopping to collect the baubles lobbed in her path each time she took the lead cost Atalanta her maidenhood."

Greek women weren't known for being (or allowed to be) feisty. But Celtic women...

"In some versions of the quest for the Golden Fleece, Atalanta was one of the Argonauts, and the only female among them."

I'm already convinced the Argo sailed west.

"The Greek goddess of discord, Eris, started the Trojan War with an apple. Miffed at having not been invited to a wedding, she tossed among the guests a golden apple enscribed "To the fairest." To put an end to the squabbling among their goddesses who each felt deserving of the apple, the mortal Paris chose Aphrodite the winner of what was probably the first beauty contest. Rejected, Hera and Athena wreaked havoc on Paris and his family, eventually leading to the Trojan War."

And we reckon that to have taken place over in these parts, too.

[DPCrisp]

Duh!
I looked 'em up:

Hesperian [L hesperius, Gk hesperios, f. Hesperia land of the west] Western; of or pertaining to the Hesperides.

Hesperus [L, f. Gk hesperos] (adj.) western, (n.) the evening star.] The evening star.

And you know what Knight & Lomas have to say about Venus and megalithic Britain.

[Ray]

Does anyone know if it's true that Venus moves through a perfect pentagram every eight weeks - or is it every eight years?

Allegedly the pentagram was the original symbol of the Olympic Games, but for the modern revival it was replaced with the five linked rings.

[Mick Harper]

The pentagram star is usually considered a harbinger of evil and, by a curious concatenation of circumstance, in 1980 the Four Great Powers--the USA, the Soviet Union, China and the European Union--all had pentagram stars on their flags.

[Ray]

[DPCrisp]

[Ray]

[DPCrisp]

[Ray]

[Jaq White]

Pentangle and Venus and apples

The Pentangle is linked to Venus because of the movements of the Planet Venus as viewed from Earth, which basically is that the planet will appear at five separate points in the sky over an eight year period - that's why 5 and 8 are sacred numbers when looking at Earth and Venus.

[Jaq White]

Apples

(First of all, Avalon is said to mean Isle of Apples, according to Geoffrey of Monmouth, whom I know we mistrust greatly but who also undoubtedly had access to material that was genuinely a true reflection of what went on in Blighty before it was brushed under the mosaic-ed patio)

1. Who is allowed to reach Avalon; why are they allowed and how are they admitted?
2. Why was Arthur's sword created there?
3. "The Island of Apples, which men call the Fortunate Isle, is so named because it produces all things of itself. The fields there have no need of farmers to plough them, and Nature alone provides all cultivation".
4. Why was Arthur's sword created there?
5. Apples have been associated with love, beauty, luck, health, comfort, pleasure, wisdom, temptation, sensuality, sexuality, virility and fertility .
6. Cut an apple in half and what do you see that is also associated with the above?
7. Could the Ancient Brits have been able to make that association?
8. What does Arthur's sword, Excalibur, stand for?
9. Why was Arthur's sword created there?

(Hint - we're getting into metaphysical territory)

[Komorikid]

It's interesting that there is no word in Greek or Ancient Greek with an etymology for apple. The Greek word is μήλο milo -- apple, cheekbone, bone of contention.

The word apple appears to be indigenous to Britian and comes from Gaelic - apple, Irish ubhall, Early Irish uball, Old Irish aball, Welsh afal, Cornish auallen, Breton avallen: aballo-, aballon;
Avalon literally means 'Land of Apples'
Apple trees were held sacred by the God Apollo
Apollo was the God of the Land of Apples

[DPCrisp]

[Mick Harper]

Another odd thing about British apples: the Brits dominated the world apple market for aeons even though this is a crap place to grow apples.

However I just learned (yesterday) that apples were historically rarely grown for eating but overwhelmingly for cider-making. The shift happened only in the eighteen-seventies when American apple-growers were worried about the growing temperance movement and coined the phrase "An apple a day keeps the doctor away." [This was also the time and place when a bunch of teetotallers invented breakfast cereals...mmm]

Anyway, what about this. It was "Celtic" apple-growers that invented alcohol and consequently gave them such immense influence in the ancient world.