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Days and Confused (History)
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DPCrisp


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Monday = Moon Day

Moon: O.E. mona, from P.Gmc. *menon- (...mano... mona... mani... maan... Mond... mena...), from PIE *me(n)ses- "moon, month" (...masah... ma... mah... mis... mene... men... mensis... meseci... menesis... mi... mis... miz...), probably from base *me- "to measure," in ref. to the moon's phases as the measure of time.... {This is surely backwards: what comes first, the notion of measuring periods of time or a name for the Moon?} Gk. selene (Lesbian selanna) is from selas "light, brightness (of heavenly bodies)." {I think KomoriKid argues about this one, but Selene = Sol/Sal looks pretty secure from here.}
So, Moon is just the name for a very particular heavenly body.

Compare:
mono
-: from Gk. mono-, comb. form of monos "single, alone," from PIE base *men- "small, isolated," also represented by Gk. manos "rare, sparse," and perhaps by Eng. minnow.

If you ask me, Moon = Mono.

Tuesday = Tiu's Day

Tiu or Tiw is also known as Twisto -- though it's difficult to find anything on this in English now: I'm dredging something up from the back of my mind -- which means twin and two.

Wednesday = Woden's Day

Woden, Wotan or Odin is the god who hung himself from the World-Tree to obtain Wisdom: the tree that transcends Heaven and Earth in a triad. He is identified with Zeus, who is 'personified' in the oak tree. Wood, meaning mad, refers to Woden's berserkers and is no doubt related to the notion of the wild wood. I think we've discussed before that tree and three are basically the same word.

Note also that Mercredi = Mercury Day and Mercury is the Messenger between Heaven and Earth, equivalent to Iris, the rainbow (bridge), signified by the fleur-de-lis, a symbol of Mary the Virgin, kingship, unity between Heaven and Earth. Mercury symbolises a triad, too.

Note also that the Odin-based name is missing in Ger. (mittwoch, from O.H.G. mittwocha, lit. "mid-week"), probably by infl. of Gothic, which seems to have adopted a pure ecclesiastical (i.e. non-astrological) week from Gk. missionaries. The Gothic model also seems to be the source of Pol. sroda, Rus. sreda "Wednesday," lit. "middle.". If the middle of the week was already defined, then so was the weekend: a supposedly recent invention.

Thursday = Thor's Day

Phonetically, I'm tempted to say Thor = Four, but I'm not sure about this. How about Thor = Zeus = tetraktys, 10, the set of 4, the 4th Triangular Number?

Friday = Frigg's Day

The double-G makes this hard to swallow, but there is a close association between Frigg (of the Aesir, Odin's wife and goddess of married love) and Freya (of the Vanir, goddess of love and beauty). Freya is identified with Venus (as in Vendredi), free {no coincidence} love and debauchery. I guess Friday night has always been Friday night!

Venus is also represented by the five-pointed star. {I could make up a phonological connection between five and Frigg, but that might be stretching things a bit.}

Saturday = Saturn's Day

Saturday: O.E. Sæterdæg, Sæternesdæg, lit. "day of the planet Saturn," from Sæternes (gen. of Sætern, see Saturn) + O.E. dæg "day." Partial loan-translation of L. Saturni dies "Saturn's day" (cf. Du. zaterdag, O.Fris. saterdi, M.L.G. satersdach; Ir. dia Sathuirn, Welsh dydd Sadwrn). The L. word is itself a loan-translation of Gk. kronou hemera, lit. "the day of Cronus." Unlike other day names, no god substitution seems to have been attempted, perhaps because the northern European pantheon lacks a clear corresponding figure to Roman Saturn.

Wot, no god/dess of farming and fertility? Do me a favour.

An ancient Nordic custom, however, seems to be preserved in O.N. laugardagr, Dan. lørdag, Swed. lördag "Saturday," lit. "bath day" (cf. O.N. laug "bath").

Well, that's about ritual cleanliness, surely! Cf. the Sabbath. {Are bath and bathos directly related to this?}

Ger. Samstag (O.H.G. sambaztag) appears to be from a Gk. *sambaton, a nasalized colloquial form of sabbaton "sabbath," also attested in O.C.S. sabota, Rus. subbota, Fr. samedi.

That is to say, they have no idea why the French and German words have M in them, so they assume someone nasalised the pronunciation of Sabbath. Well, the first thing I come across on looking for other possibilities for sam- is

sam: [OE samnian = OFris. somnia, OS samnon, MLG, MDu. sam(e)nen (Du. zamelen), OHG samanon (G sammeln), ON samna, safna, f. Gmc base f. repr. also by Skt samana together.] Assemble (people); bring together, join, in marriage, friendship, love, etc.

Whatever the official etymologies say, this is surely cognate with same; L. simul "together, at the same time", assemble, ensemble, simultaneous; and semble, resemble, etc. Somnia means sleep: like the morning after the night before; or like the soul ruled by his (Saturnalian) appetites. It's not far from soma either: the body that has the appetites!

So Samstag, Samedi might well mean "coming together day", as in a Saturnalian celebration or sabbat.

And "putting together into groups" is precisely what sex and section mean. Remembering that seven means sever, the numbers divided off from the rest are six. Also remember that Saturn or Cronus was the last of the Titans, superseded by Zeus the Olympian -- who cut off his father's testicles, didn't he?

Sunday = Sun's Day

Sun = Sol. {Again, the can't explain the marked divergence in pronunciation, but they reconstruct it all the same! The PIE element -*el- in the root originally was a suffix and had an alternate form -*en-, yielding *s(u)wen-, source of Eng. sun. The asterisk means 'reconstructed', i.e. made up.}

Sol, like Moon, seems to be nothing other than the name for the Sun. Cf. solus, sole, solo, etc.: something singular.

There is a sense of 'unity', perhaps 'completeness', in the Sun, as there is in seven or sever. And as the seventh day, Sunday divides off the week, completes it, ready for the next one.

The argument might have raged since the dawn of time: Sunday must be the first day... Sunday must be the seventh day... Both make sense. But the overall pattern suggested here is:

Monday = Mono Day
Tuesday = Two Day
Wednesday = Three Day
Thursday = Four Day
Friday = Five Day
Saturday = Six Day
Sunday = Seven Day


The timeless constant seems to be getting drunk on Friday and/or Saturday night and resting, sleeping it off the next day.

It is always assumed that the days were translated from Greek into Roman into English; and the meanings of the names (the gods) ascribed to them are consistent; but since the match between the days and the numbers is better in English than in Latin, it could well be that it went the other way around: the Romans inherited the system of days {as well as months} from us.
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Mick Harper
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Wouldn't it also suggest that the Gods are named after the days? Or, better still, named after the numbers?
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Hatty
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So Samstag, Samedi might well mean "coming together day", as in a Saturnalian celebration or sabbat.

There's also the Irish Samhain on 1st November, the precursor of All Hallow's Eve maybe, and the Irish word samain which sounds like the French semaine. The Sanskrit Soma, an energising, i.e. intoxicating, drink, ties in well with your Saturnalia, it's obtained from pressing the stalks of certain (undefined) plants which has lead to conjectures about pyschedelic mushrooms and cannabis.

And "putting together into groups" is precisely what sex and section mean. Remembering that seven means sever

So there are seven days in a week because seven is severance or sectioning; I'm off to the Isle of Wight, just wondering if wight has any connection with week - according to the OED

the Isle of Wight is from L. Vectis (c.150), originally Celtic, possibly meaning "place of the division."
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Mick Harper
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the Isle of Wight is from L. Vectis (c.150), originally Celtic, possibly meaning "place of the division."

So Dan was correct in his assumption that the Isle of Wight was artifically created by cutting round the Solent, thus creating a mystical lozenge shape ie Wessex was "divided" at this point. Though of course he only got this idea because of my even more brilliant insight that the Straits of Dover were dug out to create the mystic shape of Britain. It should be noted that Ireland too is mystically shaped, with its four quarters being the unimaginably ancient Munster, Ulster, Leinster and Connacht. So the St George's Channel (not to mention the Giant's Causeway) are all artificial.
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DPCrisp


In: Bedfordshire
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Place of the division, eh? Interesting.

The division is the Solent: the path of the Sun, or something to that effect.

Are the edges of the Isle of Wight parallel to the Icknield Way/Michael Line and other ancient roads?

Wight also means man, so it's another Isle of Man...?
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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DPCrisp wrote:
Thursday = Thor's Day
Phonetically, I'm tempted to say Thor = Four, but I'm not sure about this
.

Well then, let me stand out on that limb. Because if "Thor equals Four" then "Thigh equals Phi" -- and I am convinced there MUST have been an etymological link between the latter!
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DPCrisp


In: Bedfordshire
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Loopy told us:
For starters, in greek, Phi is too be pronounced 'Fee' and not 'Fie', so thigh and phi are not phonetically equivalent. I also think... that the term Phi to represent the golden ratio is a 19th or 20th century conception.

Sorry, Ish, I think Phi = Thigh would be nice, but is really a non-runner.
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Ishmael


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DPCrisp wrote:
Loopy says:

"For starters, in greek, Phi is too be pronounced 'Fee' and not 'Fie', so thigh and phi are not phonetically equivalent. I also think... that the term Phi to represent the golden ratio is a 19th or 20th century conception."

Sorry, Ish, but I think Phi = Thigh would be nice, but is really a non-runner.


I simply do not believe it. Let Loopy explain also why the letter "p" happens to be the 16th letter of the 26 letter English alphabet -- when supposedly the use of "p" as a symbol for phi "is a 19th or 20th century conception."

There's more going on than appears to be the case.
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Wireloop


In: Detroit
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I've heard most Greek scholars pronounce the Greek letter 'iota', as 'eee' and not as 'eye'.
The Greek letter 'phi' they pronounce as 'fee' and not 'fie'. I've listened to them on tape, and read their books.

Ish, don't dispute me, dispute the advanced scholars. I am only a novice Greek scholar, and find it very curious that they actually claim to know the pronunciation of anything. I think that your speculation about phi and thigh is interesting and well worth you wrestling with.
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Mick Harper
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We had this same argy-bargy over Latin pronunciation and for similarly significant reasons, like whether (or when) the C is hard or soft and thus, for instance, whether Celt has an etymological link with salt. One would think that the fact that the Church (whether Catholic for Latin or Orthodox for Greek) had been around for a coupla thousand years would make pronunciation rules coninuous and therefore trustworthy but no, it's all down to fashion.
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Wireloop


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Ishmael stated:
"Let Loopy explain also why the letter "p" happens to be the 16th letter of the 26 letter English alphabet -- when supposedly the use of "p" as a symbol for phi "is a 19th or 20th century conception."

response:
Well it's probably for the same reason that the English letter 'p' is pronounced 'pee' and not 'pie', and why the 8th english letter 'i' pronounced 'eye' is equivalent to the greek iota pronounced 'eee'.

The letter P = 16:26 = Phi
The letter I = 8:26 = 2(Phi)

Seriously, anytime we see the divine ratio, it should cause us to stop, look and listen.
16 : 26 is indeed a fair representation of the divine ratio, but that does not necessarily scream 'intent' unless we see a some other similar correlations.

I don't have a problem with your investigation, but the 'iota' does seem to be a phonetic hurdle as far as academia is concerned. Thus far I have to take their word for it that Phi is pronounced 'Fee', and it is up to us to show that they're dead wrong.
Can we?
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Ishmael


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wireloop wrote:
I've heard most Greek scholars pronounce the Greek letter 'iota', as 'eee' and not as 'eye'.
The Greek letter 'phi' they pronounce as 'fee' and not 'fie'. I've listened to them on tape, and read their books.


Considering the mess " scholars" have made of "Middle English" I have zero faith in their reconstructions of Greek and Latin. It's all bokum.

But I can certainly tell you that the ancients associated the thigh of man with Phi. The line running through the testicles from thigh to thigh divides a man into two parts, one part 1.618 times the length of the other.

This is where Jacob was wounded (it is where King Arthur was wounded for that matter). It is where Saturn was castrated. It is where Castor was divided from Pollux.

The Thigh is Phi. This begs for an etymological association between Ph and Th.

And I have yet to hear anyone explain how the letter p should, by sheer coincidence, find itself positioned at the very point where the English Alphabet itself divides into two parts where one part is exactly 1.6 times the length of the other part.

Obviously. Scholars haven't a clue what is going on!
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Ishmael


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wireloop wrote:
response:
Well it's probably for the same reason that the English letter 'p' is pronounced 'pee' and not 'pie', and why the 8th english letter 'i' pronounced 'eye' is equivalent to the greek iota pronounced 'eee'.


Wireloop, the vowel sound of these letters is, as Mick states, probably all just down to fashion. In arguing that Thigh equals Phi I do not argue that Thigh was pronounced as Feye or Fee -- I argue merely that whatever the sound once associated with the symbol we know as Phi, that sound was also once associated with the word we now know as Thigh. I have no argument concerning, and don't especially care about, the specific pronunciation of either. I only state that they must have once matched.

The letter P = 16:26 = Phi


Right. And "p" is the symbol for Phi. But that symbol was supposedly only adopted in the 19th century (if memory serves). That's according to "scholars." So this is to be ignored. It's all just a coincidence. Right?

The letter I = 8:26 = 2(Phi)


Does the letter "i" have some symbolic connection with 2xPhi?

16 : 26 is indeed a fair representationof the divine ratio, but that does not necessarily scream 'intent' unless we see a some other similar correlations.


Are you kidding? Assuming a 26 letter alphabet, the odds against p -- the symbol of Phi -- lying at the position where the Alphabet itself divides by the golden ratio is 25 to one against.

But what are the odds that the English Alphabet should have precisely 26 letters (itself a numeric representation of 2xPhi)? The odds are incalculable. The English Alphabet could have been of any conceivable length.

And furthermore, what are the odds that the letter p should be adopted to symbolize Phi? Another incalculable coincidence. Any symbol might have been chosen. A greek letter like that used for Pi. Or an arbitary symbol such as those used to represent infinty of any number of pure mathematical concepts.

In short, it is irrational to ascribe this concordance to coincidence. Its probability by chance alone is so small as to approach absolute zero.

Thus far I have to take their word for it that Phi is pronounced 'Fee', and it is up to us to show that they're dead wrong.
Can we?


I am not concerned with specific pronunciation and, had you been around for the Chaucer discussion, you would show far less credulity toward the pronouncement of academia on this subject. My argument, again, is only that the sound of Thigh, whatever it was, was once concordant with the sound of Phi, whatever that was.

It is from Phi that our word Thigh is derived. It is because of the golden ratio divide of the human body that the Thighs were given their name -- a name that originally was synonymous with division.
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Mick Harper
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In Greek, Celtic and Arthurian legend, the hero-king is always said to be "wounded in the thigh" and we are always told that this is merely Victorian prudery at work, and we are to understand that testicles (or wedding tackle generally) is actually meant. However I am beginning to wonder if this confusion is not cover for something else -- either "careful ignoral" on the part of modern scholars or "careful something else" on the part of the Ancients.
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Wireloop


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Ishamel stated:
"Are you kidding? Assuming a 26 letter alphabet, the odds against p -- the symbol of Phi -- lying at the position where the Alphabet itself divides by the golden ratio is 25 to one against."

response:
Where is the example of 'p' being used as a symbol for 'phi'?
How did you come up with that?

The greek letter 'phi' is not transliterated into English as the letter 'p', it is transliterated as the letter 'f'.
The greek letter 'pie' is transliterated in English as the letter 'p'.
There is an obvious pronounciation role reversal.
However, the greek letter 'phi', transliterated 'f', is used as a symbol for 1.618....

Phi = makes the sound 'eee', transliterated 'f'.
Pi = makes the sound 'eye', transliterated 'p'.
Iota = makes the sound 'eee', transliterated 'I'.
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