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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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Mick Harper wrote: | In Greek, Celtic and Arthurian legend, the hero-king is always said to be "wounded in the thigh" and we are always told that this is merely Victorian prudery at work, and we are to understand that testicles (or wedding tackle generally) is actually meant. However I am beginning to wonder if this confusion is not cover for something else -- either "careful ignoral" on the part of modern scholars or "careful something else" on the part of the Ancients. |
Yes, Mick, I brought this point to your attention earlier. I too heard the same explanation for the use of allusion to thigh wounds as a genteel reference to castration. But this explanation must be applied to myths throughout the ages in even their most original forms -- because the Norse and the Greeks and peoples around the world all make reference to thigh wounds.
But I've a better explanation now. Thigh wounds and castration both reference the same thing -- the line of Phi that passes through the human body at the golden ratio. This is the line at which Castor (the castrated) is separated from Pollux (the bullox) (pace Dan for solving the puzzle of the names.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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wireloop wrote: | Where is the example of 'p' being used as a symbol for 'phi'? How did you come up with that? |
Here is the actual symbol for phi: φ
Behold the letter p.
| The greek letter 'phi' is not transliterated into English as the letter 'p', it is transliterated as the letter 'f'. |
Well that's even more interesting because it is the symbol p that holds the phi position in the English Alphabet and it is the symbol p that is associated with Phi.
| The greek letter 'pie' is transliterated in English as the letter 'p'. |
Right. Which is yet another reason I've long suspected the ancients made an explicit association between Pi and Phi -- that the numbers were somehow essentially the same in their mathematics.
Phi = makes the sound 'eee', transliterated 'f'.
Pi = makes the sound 'eye', transliterated 'p'.
Iota = makes the sound 'eee', transliterated 'I'. |
I don't think we know the first thing about how any of this is pronounced.
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Wireloop
In: Detroit
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Look, see. Interesting, you might have something here.
Consider the Greek uncial letter 'phi'. Can it be construed as a the letter 'P'?
| I don't think we know the first thing about how any of this is pronounced. |
Step 1: Why do the academics pronounce it that way?
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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Here is the actual symbol for phi: φ
Behold the letter p. |
This is tantalising. Trouble is, that Mark Barr assigning the first letter of Phidias to the golden ratio in the 20th century is a matter of record.
'Course, there is a resemblance between P and upper-case Phi, Φ, too. And rather mysteriously, hardly any resemblance between P and Pi, Π, π. D'ya think Pi looks more like F? P and F are cognate sounds after all and this is just another linguistic tangle that may or may not have been addressed already.
Wikipedia says Phi (upper case Φ lower case φ), pronounced "fai"... that is, in English... as in English "defy", is the 21st letter of the Greek alphabet. In modern Greek, it represents [f], a voiceless labiodental fricative. In Ancient Greek it represented [Ph] {I can't replicate the symbols shown on Wikipedia.}, an aspirated voiceless bilabial plosive. In the system of Greek numerals it has a value of 500.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| This is tantalising. Trouble is, that Mark Barr assigning the first letter of Phidias to the golden ratio in the 20th century is a matter of record. |
But we can never know that this sprang from his mind like Athena from the head of Zeus! What was his inspiration for doing so? Was there some tradition that existed prior to this codification?
He might well have been inspired by the fact that I too noticed: that the English letter p most-closely resembles the symbol used by the ancient Greeks to represent phi. So why is that? Why do we have a letter that resembles the Greek symbol? Might it be that the two marks are variations of the same? Of course.
So the fact that Barr and I both noticed the same congruity in no way discounts the possibility that the English p is congruent with the symbol for phi for a very good reason -- because it is the English version of the Greek symbol. It is all the more likely to be just that when we consider that it lies at the exact phi mark of the 26 letter English alphabet.
This last point, as I have said before, is simply too much of a coincidence.
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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| He might well have been inspired by the fact that I too noticed: that the English letter p most-closely resembles the symbol used by the ancient Greeks to represent phi. |
So the question is why P should be associated with the Golden Ratio.
Since Greek TH is pronounced T and CH pronounced K, we might enquire as to whether Phi-for-Phidias is correct at all. Is it really "Pidias"?
Can't be (?) if it was spelled with a Ф, but then why are we so insistent on spelling Greek words with PH instead of F? (Is it the Bloody Romans again?)
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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ll this Pi and Alphabet stuff came to me the other night when I was lying in bed, tossing and turning and thinking about Phi. I start playing with the word -- appreciating its cognate qualities with the symbol Pi. "Obviously," I think, "these two symbols must be the same symbol." P does not need an h to be pronounced as 'Fiy'. And as I now know, Pi is actually a mathematical derivative of Phi -- its short form for a longer equation based on 1.618.
So then I think, what else is cognate with p? Why... b of course! And that makes 'bi'. And what does bi mean? Bi means two or double. There's the principle of twinning that underlies the concept of Phi -- as we have seen. The first letter is A and it divides to make B -- which we pronounce as 'bee' but should probably be pronounced as 'bye'. The lower case b is actually an upside-down p. Interesting.
And that gets me thinking about the alphabet as a whole and I ask myself, 'What happens if you divide the Alphabet by Phi? -- in the same way that a human being is divided at the testicles-fists line to make Castor and Pollux?' Well...I didn't have a calculator handy so I thought, 'Hmm...half the alphabet is 13. So that means the Phi character must be found between 13 and 20. What letters are in those positions? Hmmm....'
n, o, p...
P!
'Wait a second' I thought. What position is that?
16!
Wow. It's the 16th position. A Phi value!... Then I slapped my head because I realized that the number of letters in the English Alphabet is 26 -- another Phi value. 26 is a magical number because it is both the square of Phi and Phi plus 1. So z is at the position of the square of the p position which is the position of Phi (Phi can be expressed as the ratio 1:1.6 or as 10:16).
And if 'b' should rightfully be pronounced as 'bye' then 'p', which we pronounce as 'pee' ought be pronounced 'pie' -- the same exact vowel sound ending. The 16th letter of the 26 letter English alphabet is the letter 'Pi' or 'Phi' (alternatively, Pi or Phi ought be pronounced Pee and Fee).
This means the English Alphabet is an artificial construct. It did not form by some kind of consensus.
Someone designed it.
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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This means the English Alphabet is an artificial construct. It did not form by some kind of consensus.
Someone designed it. |
Conclusion sounds good. Derivation, while intriguing, apparently falls down with the association between "Phi" and the Golden Mean dating only from the early 20th century. ("Tau" is also used. T is 20... F is 6...)
i.e. calling the Golden Mean/Ratio/Section "Phi" is a recent thing.
It has also been denoted by Tau, but I dunno when. For all I know, it has had a longer history as Tau than as Phi. (But then you might notice that T [ tau ] is the 20th letter, while F [ phi ] is the 6th... and if you squint the right way, you can see these as related to 16 or Phi, too.)
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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"The symbol φ ("phi") was apparently first used by Mark Barr at the beginning of the 20th century in commemoration of the Greek sculptor Phidias (ca. 490-430 BC), who a number of art historians claim made extensive use of the golden ratio in his works"
i.e. calling the Golden Mean/Ratio/Section "Phi" is a recent thing. |
Look. The problem is this. There's just no way in hell that I believe this! There's something truly odd about Phi. It seems to show up all over history. Look at Fibonacci who has "Phi" at the beginning of his nick-name (that wasn't his real name). Look at Pythagoras who has "Pi" in his name. How in heck could the English letter "pie" or "pea" (p) end up in the Phi position if it wasn't associated with Phi until the 20th century???
I tell you, none of this makes sense.
To top it off, if you look up the Phi entry on Wikipedia, you will learn that orthodox academics still deny that the Ancient Greeks were even aware of the number Phi or the golden ratio. I tell you, the orthodox history on this subject is completely wrong. It could not be more wrong.
| It has also been denoted by Tau |
Tau? Is that cognate with "Thigh?" And why does Tau sound like "two?" (hmmm....so does tao, come to think of it).
BTW -- didn't see you comment on my "fists" solution for Polydeuces.
Come to think of that, the first two letters of the word "fist" spells "fi" or "Phi." As for "deuces," the word clearly means, not only fists, but "two" -- so there again is the principle of twinning.
| But then you might notice that T [ tau ] is the 20th letter, while F [ phi ] is the 6th... and if you squint the right way, you can see these as related to 16 or Phi, too.) |
How do 6 and 20 relate to Phi?
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Wireloop
In: Detroit
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I've always found it curious that the Hebrews maintained the 22 letters of the Phoenician alphabet which we and the Greeks inherited. As you know the number 22 has great significance when divided by the 'divine' 7. 22 / 7 = pi (a very close approx supposedly used by the AE).
Now here is the kicker. In both the Phoenician and Hebrew alphabets the number 7 is represented by the symbol 'zayin' or what we would transliterate as the letter Z (the end of the English alphabet). As you know the Ancient Greek phrase 'alpha and omega' means infinity. The circle also represents infinity. Did the letter Z end up at the end of our alphabet to represent the concept of pi 22 / 7 in language?
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Wireloop
In: Detroit
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Also in the Ionic numeral system the greek 'zeta' is curiously 'moved' from the 6th position to the 7th position to make room for the now obsolete 'digamma'.
Why was the digamma inserted into the 6th position and the zeta moved to the 7th?
How come the digamma was not inserted into the 9th position like the 'qoppa' was inserted into the 90th or 'sampi' into the 900th?
Hmmm....
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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Wireloop wrote: | Did the letter Z end up at the end of our alphabet to represent the concept of pi 22 / 7 in language? |
Surely not, since the alphabet with Z at the end does not have 22 letters.
Wikipedia says of Z:
The name of the Semitic symbol was zayin, possibly meaning "weapon", and was the seventh letter.
Weapon, eh? So, both 7 and Z look like slashes, cuts on purpose.
In early Latin, the sound of /z/ developed into /r/, and the symbol became useless. {They make it sound simple... but Z --> D --> R is possible.} It was therefore removed from the alphabet around 300 BC by the Censor, Appius Claudius Caecus, and a new letter, G was put in its place soon thereafter.
We've discussed the mysteries of G, Z and other letters around here many times. Notice how small zeta resembles big zeta and G:
In the 1st century BC, it was, like Y {Ah, the other classic mystery letter.}, introduced again at the end of the Latin alphabet, in order to represent more precisely the value of the Greek zeta - previously transliterated as s at the beginning and ss in the middle of words... The letter appeared only in Greek words, and Z is the only letter besides Y that the Romans took directly from the Greek, rather than Etruscan.
Until recent times, the English alphabets used by children terminated not with Z but with & or related typographic symbols.
| Also in the Ionic numeral system the greek 'zeta' is curiously 'moved' from the 6th position to the 7th position to make room for the now obsolete 'digamma'. |
Isn't digamma the same as F, our sixth letter?
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Wireloop
In: Detroit
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'Zayin' is 'Zion'.
Sure sound alike eh?
Zion, although literally a representation of Jerusalem, is metaphorically in the OT a symbol of Abraham's promise (an eternal promised land for an innumerable, promised eternal seed, i.e., the Jews). The promised land is obviously not meant to be a literal, physical plot in the temporal, corporeal realm, but a metaphysical plot in the eternal, incorporeal realm. Read Philo.
.
What does this mean?
Well, Zayin is the 7th letter in the 22 letter Hebrew/Phoenician alphabet.
22/7 = pi = infinity/eternity/zion
The realm of Zion, in the OT, are for those who are of the BLOODLINE , (the seed) of Issac (the promise). Issac's mother Sarah was not impregnated by Abraham, for she was old and barren, but she was impregnated by God because of promise. To show that only those 'of Issac', the divine seed, were considered Jews, the Jews instituted the practice of circumcision. It is all about the Penis and the 'eternal cycle' of death for life, father for son, fruit for seed, etc.. as observed in the irrational nature of 'life' and the irrational nature of....pi, phi, etc..
Is is not very curious that the modern hebrew slang for penis is ZAYIN?
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Wireloop wrote: | | Did the letter Z end up at the end of our alphabet to represent the concept of pi 22 / 7 in language? |
Z looks an awful lot like 7. And 7 happens to come also at the end of the week.
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Wireloop
In: Detroit
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And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. God made two great lights--the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning--the fourth day.
I was just contemplating this passage and the concept of the 'week' in light of the fact that the days Sunday and Monday are adjacent to each other. You see, this passage states that God created the 'greater and lesser' lights to mark 'seasons'. That is kind of strange considering that we equate seasons primarily with weather patterns. What does the sun and moon (symbolically) have to do with weather patterns I thought?
In Greek myth the sun (Helios) and moon (Selene) are said to be lovers, who gave birth to the HORAI.
The HORAI were the 'seasons'. Ooh that is interesting! So both the Hebrew and Greek myth say that the Sun and Moon are 'the parents' of the seasons, but who is the parent of the Sun and Moon?
Father Time of course....Chronos.
The planet Saturn (Greek: Cronus) is the slowest moving object in the sky and therefore the perfect representation of the 'keeper of time'. It takes 29.5 years to orbit the sun, and as viewed from the earth moves very very slowly.
Saturday - Chronos - Saturn - saetern - FATHER TIME
Sunday - Helios - Sol - Sunnan - Sun
Monday - Selene - Monan - Moon
Tuesday - Ares - Mars - Tiw - (Dec21 - Mar21)
Wednesday - Hermes - Mercury - Woden - (Mar21 - June21)
Thursday - Zeus - Jupiter - Thor - (June21 - Sept21)
Friday - Aphrodite - Venus - Freja - (Sept21 - Dec21)
SUNDAY and MONDAY:
Day 1 and 2.
Let there be light.
The Sun and Moon begin working together for the purpose of their father.
TUESDAY (Dec21 - Mar21):
Day 3.
Mars is where we get our word for March, and early in the Roman pantheon Mars was worshipped as the god of fertility. His seed is sown (in mother earth...or venus) at the the winter solstice, but we don't see the fruit (the green) until the spring Equinox.
Mars represents the 'spring' season.
WEDNESDAY (Mar21 - June21):
Day 4.
Woden is Odin. His festival was traditionally observed in April and he was closely associated with abundance, wisdom, hunt and victory. These are the 'firstfruits'.
The Ynglinga saga states one of the great festivals of the calendar is at sumri, 'at var sigrbl't "in summer, for victory"
Also, since the planet Mercury is the nearest to the sun it is a 'no brainer' to associate Mercury with summertime, and the 1st-century Roman writer Tacitus identifies Mercury and 'Wotan' as being the same, and describes him as the chief god of the Germanic peoples.
THURSDAY (June21 - Sept21):
Day 5.
Obviously Thor, but why in the 'heat of summer'.
Well, when you think of Thor you think of THUNDER. You see, there are on average in Scandinavia (because of its latitude), only about 10 days of the year where it is 'possible' to witness a thunderstorm. It is quite rare.
These days are in the middle of July...Thors Day, and are quite treacherous for sailing.
In fact the Germanics did not even call Thor by his name, but by his 'attribute'....donner.
Zeus was also equated with Thunder.
FRIDAY (Sept21 - Dec21):
Day 6.
Freja, in this context, represents the setting Venus (opposed to the rising Venus)...the going away of fertility. But this is also where she meets Mars.
SATURDAY:
Day 7.
And God rested.
Time collapses back into itself in order to start all over.
______________________
Well, something like that.
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