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I am not sure Chad has the same "pyschological profile," as a nutter, who has seen a dragon.
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Chad
In: Ramsbottom
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| Chad, would you agree that somebody who reported seeing a dragon would indignantly point out a) they know perfectly well what a dragon looks like and b) their actual existence in the part of Britain in which he saw it is fully verified 'by the literature'? |
If this somebody reported seeing a plain old drab green dragon...the like of which is encountered on a daily basis by numerous people...he wouldn't even have caused a raised eyebrow.
If, on the other hand, he reported seeing the rather rare golden variant...the like of which is seldom encountered (but had been reported in the vicinity)...I would at first enquire if he had been taking too much wormwood with his ephedra tincture... but once he had explained that he was quite familiar with green dragons and so could easily differentiate between a golden dragon and sheep with a golden fleece... I would believe him without reservation.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| I am not sure Chad has the same "pyschological profile," as a nutter, who has seen a dragon. |
But this is the whole point about Exmoor Beast Syndrome. Everybody concerned is completely normal, they might even be wildlife experts of one kind or another (as, it would seem, Chad is). We are dealing here with the norms of human perception.
It is true that now somebody reporting seeing a dragon in Britain would be considered quite properly to be a nutter. That is because it is 'established' that dragons do not exist and it would take more than one person to report the sighting to shake that position (extraordinary claims requiring etc etc). The people who reported seeing them then not only knew them to exist but this belief was supported by the relevant Life Sciences experts of the time.
But pumas do exist on Exmoor -- or at least they might do notionally as escaped pets or zoo animals. So half a dozen reported sightings create a reality. Each individual witness is convinced of seeing a puma. It is only much, much later that we can come to the conclusion that they were probably mistaken. This in no way subtracts from the reality of these people's original perception but it is open to each of them to shrug and say, "Heigh ho, I guess I was taken in by Exmoor Beast Syndrome."
What would you do if tonight you were abducted by aliens and forced to have sex with them in the mothercraft? Remember, the 'experience' would be so real that it would feel as if it had happened. You would also know that this has reportedly happened to millions of other apparently sane people. Could you be confident that you would be able to apply your intellect ("Oh right, this is a known physiological phenomenon to do with chest pressure while one is asleep") over your actual memory of an event that apparently happened to you? I'd rather not be put to the test personally especially as I am pretty sure that my dreaming mind would be cute enough to alter the details sufficiently to make me forever wonder....
But now to Chad and the White Hart. Here there is the clear possibility that he really did see a white hart. But we knew that already. Chad, as a knowledgeable and sensible person, would simply not report 'a dragon' sighting. In such a situation it is quite unrealistic to expect him to waver in his view but for the rest of us we must weigh the evidence. In my opinion, reviewing the evidence as supplied by Chad, I would say the chances of him actually seeing a white hart is less than the chance of him making a Beast of Bodmin-style misidentification.
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Chad
In: Ramsbottom
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To be fair, had anybody else reported this sighting I would have been as sceptical as Mick and in general I would have to go along with his analysis.
However, I can be quite confident that I wasn't taken in by Exmoor Beast Syndrome.
There are four possibilities:
A) I saw a white Red deer.
B) I saw an ordinary Red deer but perceived it to be white due to a trick of the light.
C) I saw a close shorn sheep that I misidentified as a white Red deer.
D) I saw a close shorn sheep that my brain transformed into a white Red deer.
I can discount B and C for the same reasons. The encounter happened in good light and at close quarters. I slowed down as I approached the animal on a single track road and at first I assumed (as I said earlier) it was a very closely shorn sheep. When the animal stared at me and bounded across the road, into the woods, my car was virtually stationary and the animal was only a cars length in front of me. It was without doubt a deer and it was undoubtedly white. This was not a case of mistaken identity.
So what about D?
Well, I have to make a confession. I'm not totally unfamiliar with the tricks the brain can play on one's perception, having bumped into the odd mind altering substance (rather too often) in my misspent youth. And throughout all my years I have never seen or heard anything out of the ordinary (when not under the influence)... not a single alien, ghost, fairy, dragon or Loch Ness monster.
Moreover, even whilst under the influence (which I haven't been for many years) I was always able to retain a grip on reality and was aware when I was hallucinating. Had this been an hallucination, it would have panned out in an entirely different way. (These things follow rules.)
The sheep would have transformed into a white deer before my eyes...but being a sheep (even in the form of a white deer) it would not have pranced Bambi-like across the road, it would have stood its ground and probably uttered something sarcastic as I passed.
No this wasn't an hallucination.
That leaves only A.
You can rest assured... this was a white deer.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | But this is the whole point about Exmoor Beast Syndrome. Everybody concerned is completely normal, they might even be wildlife experts of one kind or another (as, it would seem, Chad is). We are dealing here with the norms of human perception. |
I suppose I'd better not mention now my belief in Bigfoot.
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Chad
In: Ramsbottom
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Right then Mr. Harper...put this in your pipe and smoke it.
This was a comment made in response to the report of the white stag videoed in the Western Highlands:
33
Xandi,
Helensburgh (nearby) 13/02/2008 14:27:28
We've had a young white stag in our garden several times as have some of our neighbours. Apparently there was a herd of white deer up in the Arrochar area some years ago and they crop up from time to time.
My sighting was about three or four miles from Arrochar on the road to Helensburgh, along the south shore of Loch Long.
I rest my case.
P.S. Mick, if the poor little bugger gets shot by some trophy hunter, its blood is on your hands... for dragging this info out of me!
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Chad
In: Ramsbottom
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As further confirmation of the validity of my sighting... I came across this Letter to the Editor -- February 2009 (The Countryman).
I came across your website when googling 'white deer', as I had never heard of such a creature before. However, one Saturday last November I was driving along Glen Mallon, en route to Arrochar. The road is quite twisty, and on the approach to the naval supply berth on the loch that the road runs past, I saw round the corner the tail end of a white beast.
Initially I thought it to be a rather tall sheep, I must confess, and slowed in case a herd should come bounding out. You may imagine my surprise when, slowly turning the bend, I realised it was a young, white deer -- so young his antlers were only just formed and were possibly only about three to four inches long. What a truly beautiful sight.
Unfortunately I had not got my camera with me, so was unable to take a photograph of him. I thought it might be of interest to readers to learn of this sighting.
Joan Summer
Need I say more?
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Unfortunately all this confirms unmistakeably that we are being assailed by the Beast of Bodmin. You see,.the more frequent the purely visual sightings the more glaring is the lack of documentary evidence (and this in an era when everybody has a camera on their mobile phone -- not that photographic evidence is necessarily definitive.) The real giveaway is the nature of the evidence cited:
the unicorn in the garden....
the confirmation from the neighbours...
hey, there was a whole herd of 'em in the days of yore...
It's all absolutely classic. Mark my words, there'll be snow on their hooves any day now.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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It's puzzling how such a visible creature could survive yet in populated areas deer manage to remain undetected even by dogs, sometimes by simply lying down in long grass. One forgets the extent of empty space to be found between the built up areas.
What's surprising is how unwilling people are to believe a rather abnormal occurrence and the way, having made up his mind, someone will defend his stance with implacable derision (always a good one) and even resort to pseudo-scientific terminologies such as 'syndrome'.
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Chad
In: Ramsbottom
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Mick... I suggest (knowing your interest in the subject) you get yourself up the West Highland Railway line to Arrochar and Tarbet station...
...and go for a stroll along the loch.
If you're lucky it shouldn't be too long before you spot a pretty white deer (I've only been going up there for twenty five years...and I've seen one already).
Once you get back and are able to corroborate my sighting... I might tell you about my encounter with the rarely seen Scottish Wildcat.
P.S. Don't forget to take your camera.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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So after twenty-five trips you've just seen the one despite 'evidence' that there has been at least one herd extant during that time. Very unlucky. How do you explain the absence of photographs? Do we have any photos of Scottish wildcats....um, we have entire wildlife programmes!
Hatty, remember you are on side of the mob. Everybody wants to believe in white harts. And pumas on Exmoor. And Bigfoot. I do myself. It makes life so much more interesting and what the human brain wants the human brain usually gets. But the Pursuit of Truth and the Pursuit of the White Hart are not the same thing.
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Chad
In: Ramsbottom
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While Mick's away on safari... (EDIT: I see he hasn't gone yet)... I'll tell you about my encounter with the Scottish wildcat.
It was a few years ago, when my son and I went camping in the highlands to do a bit of male bonding. We pitched our tent in the Argyle Forrest by the side of a loch... unknowingly close to where a wildcat was raising a litter of kittens.
Early one morning we went down to the shore to see if we could bag a couple rabbits (armed with a home-made bow and a catapult). That's when we spotted the wildcat who obviously had the same idea. We waited until she had made her kill and dragged off her prey. We were less successful...although my son very nearly managed to hit me (I actually felt the arrow brush the inside of my thigh, as it passed between my legs).
We saw this wildcat several times over the next couple of days (once she was dragging a rabbit into some undergrowth where we could hear the kittens) and there were a couple of things that struck me... firstly, from a distance (because of its large size and robustness) it could easily be mistaken for a lynx and secondly, if you spotted it in next door's garden you would just think it was a rather large moggy.
I'm sure that, at the edge of their range, these wildcats are the source of many Beast of Bodmin type sightings, but it's their relationship to the domestic cat that interests me... there are many Canis Lupus dog/wolf parallels.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Notice the ring of truth with this account.
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Chad
In: Ramsbottom
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| How do you explain the absence of photographs? |
Here's a nice one taken in the vicinity of my sighting... hosted on bbc.co.uk/yourpics
See, I told you... it looks like a mutant long necked sheep!
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Chad
In: Ramsbottom
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| But the Pursuit of Truth and the Pursuit of the White Hart are not the same thing |
Very clever Mick... but you really need to learn to admit defeat.
It became obvious that you knew the game was up when your tone changed from one of superior analytical understanding...
| But now to Chad and the White Hart. Here there is the clear possibility that he really did see a white hart. But we knew that already. Chad, as a knowledgeable and sensible person, would simply not report 'a dragon' sighting. In such a situation it is quite unrealistic to expect him to waver in his view but for the rest of us we must weigh the evidence. In my opinion, reviewing the evidence as supplied by Chad, I would say the chances of him actually seeing a white hart is less than the chance of him making a Beast of Bodmin-style misidentification. |
....to one of (as Hatty noticed) implacable derision...
the unicorn in the garden....
the confirmation from the neighbours...
hey, there was a whole herd of 'em in the days of yore...
It's all absolutely classic. Mark my words, there'll be snow on their hooves any day now. |
...then on to pleading with others to toe the party line....
| Hatty, remember you are on side of the mob. |
Also (again as Hatty pointed out) you cleverly use words such as phenomenon and syndrome to add scientific weight to your argument whilst slipping in the term White Hart (with capital letters no less) to make mine sound fanciful and unscientific.... notice I used the term white deer and pointed out that it was probably a female. (I'm sure you know hart is another name for stag.)
So come on... use a bit of applied epistemology... and admit there is overwhelming evidence to suggest I did in fact encounter a white Red deer... even though changing your stance is psychologically abhorrent to you.
And don't forget... I've already conceded that in general, your analysis is absolutely correct.... it's just that in this specific case you happen to be absolutely wrong.
One more thing.... would anybody who hadn't seen it, describe it as long necked mutant sheep? But you can see from the photo above.... that's exactly what it looks like.
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