MemberlistThe Library Index  FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
Going Walkabout (British History)
Reply to topic Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, ... 41, 42, 43  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Hatty
Site Admin

In: Berkshire
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Aside from Ogbourne priory, the Abbey of Bec also held lands in Swincombe in Oxfordshire, Wantage in Berkshire and Bledlow in Buckinghamshire; all these locations are on or near the Ridgeway.

Bledlow, whose lord of the manor was the Ogbourne prior, is about half a mile from the lower Icknield Way, a trading route from the south-west to Norfolk. {Another of their holdings was Ruislip in Middlesex; Ruislip farm was owned by King's College Cambridge from 1500 till the 20th century -- it has a splendid barn, now a listed building, which together with the sense of manorial placidity is testament to the place's prosperity.} Henry V who dissolved the Ogbourne priory granted Bledlow manor to his brother the Duke of Bedford (the Bedford family made its fortune from the cloth trade).

It could be that Bec Abbey had properties at intervals along the Ridgeway because chalk downlands are suitable for the purposes of sheep-rearing for wool (this is the reason given for the location of the Templar priory at Rockley, in the Marlborough Downs); it would make commercial sense to have access to, and possibly control over, a route in constant use and would also have afforded an excellent means of intelligence-gathering. Benedictine monks no doubt disapproved of the Ridgeway's pre-Christian associations, it's somewhat puzzling that so much of the area's history has been ignored for so long.
Send private message
Hatty
Site Admin

In: Berkshire
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Looking at the somewhat complicated account of Bledlow manor in Victoria County History this caught my eye:

The whole manor of Bledlow, which was granted to the Count of Mortain by the Conqueror, does not seem to have been included in the grant to Hugh de Gurnay. (fn. 43) The family of de Rual or Druel held certain land, afterwards known as MESLES or DRUELS, in Bledlow, of the honour of Mortain in the 13th century.

Mesle is very similar to Maizeley. Etymology undoubtedly French according to Answers.com: French pêle-mêle, from Old French pesle mesle, probably reduplication of mesle. [cf. French mêlée, from Old French meslee, past participle of mesler, to mix. ] A mêlée is a confused battle or brawl.

The hamlet of Mosleye or Mesle was held by John Druel in the thirteenth century but the Druel family name disappeared after 1346 (plague?). The manor also disappeared, the only remnant of its existence being Druels Wood near Bledlow Ridge, which VCH says has recently "been grubbed up".
Send private message
Hatty
Site Admin

In: Berkshire
View user's profile
Reply with quote

PS. "Pell mell" may not always have had the meaning of 'muddled confusion'; it suggests 'hair in a tangle', i.e. windswept, which could have had heroic/chivalric overtones (like a knight spurring forth to do battle...with a dragon?)
Send private message
Mick Harper
Site Admin

In: London
View user's profile
Reply with quote

There is one overwhelming problem of using landscape features to make your way across country and that is the infinite number of features in any given landscape. Which is the one that you are meant to be going toward?

There is an elegant and economic way of solving this problem. First you introduce the 'straight line principle'. The only unambiguous way of selecting landscape feature C is to ensure that it is in a straight line from landscape feature A and landscape feature B. But note it doesn't have to be absolutely straight, simply straight enough to be recognisable.

But this is still somewhat hit-and-miss Should you ever make a mistake in landscape feature selection (which is possible at every stage), then the infinite number of landscape features will ensure you are led forever along the wrong straight line.

Enter the continuous fail-safe feature built into the system. Let's say the general line is roughly west-east. To the north of the line are etched a whole lot of cup-and-ring petraglyphs (though they can be carved into trees as well) in handy and clearly visible places. (You can even put up standing stones.). So whenever the traveller spots a cup-and-ring sign he knows he is too far to the north of his required route.

But if he goes too far south he runs into the Troy Game spiral petraglyph which similarly instructs him to shift northwards. It will soon be obvious when he is back on the 'straight and narrow'. In fact both the cup-and-ring and the spiral probably tell him how far to go and in which precise direction in order to reach the nearest appropriate landscape feature though I don't yet know how they do this.

Look here to see how far orthodoxy has got with all of this which as you might have guessed is nowheresville
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cup_and_ring_mark
Send private message
Hatty
Site Admin

In: Berkshire
View user's profile
Reply with quote

It might be a more logical system if cup-and-ring marks signalled a particular route; some tracks have their own symbols though they are not always easy to distinguish (oh the relief of espying a white arrow painted onto a tree trunk) especially where tracks cross each other. The most obvious feature is the ridge itself; it's more reassuring to follow a path that keeps that in view than looking out for signs on a tree trunk.
Send private message
Mick Harper
Site Admin

In: London
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Can you explain to us who are less enlightened why St George and St Michael have a megalithic meaning

One small point was cleared up in a programme tonight about how the seven Narnia books were apparently written in honour of the seven astrological planets. The Voyage of the 'Dawn Treader' is the one about the Sun (in astrology, one of the planets) and, the programme solemnly told us, featured Apollo as the Sun God, but also Apollo the dragon-slayer (apparently dragons feature big in the book.)

Now the Greeks called Stonehenge the British Temple of Apollo and most orthodox pre-historians claim this to be just travellers' tales and not very significant, but obviously this is merely the first recorded example of the Dragon Line being denoted by a dragon-slaying god, of which St Michael and St George are later examples..

Though it remains a mystery why dragons are involved at all.
Send private message
Hatty
Site Admin

In: Berkshire
View user's profile
Reply with quote

this is merely the first recorded example of the Dragon Line being denoted by a dragon-slaying god, of which St Michael and St George are later examples..

Though it remains a mystery why dragons are involved at all.

It could be that dragon-slaying is metaphorically claiming that this is a 'protected' route, vitally important for traders and travellers generally to know they can go about their business unmolested (think of the Knights Templar & co. protecting the pilgrim routes in the Holy Land). The saints are of course later but nevertheless continue to fulfill the role of protectors in a Christian era.
Send private message
Mick Harper
Site Admin

In: London
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Nah, it's got something to do with dragons=worms=snakes=serpents=wisdom
which is the Megalithic Corporation's logo.
Send private message
Hatty
Site Admin

In: Berkshire
View user's profile
Reply with quote

The programme on the Narnia books reminded me of that other series of seven, the Harry Potter books (in J.K. Rowlings' case there had to be seven in total for each year that Harry was at Hogwarts school, from 11 to 18). Both book series started well, the first in the series being easily the most absorbing (and funniest); C.S. Lewis' The Magician's Nephew is far and away the best and the last one The Last Battle is embarrassingly bad, which makes it eminently plausible that he too decided in advance to write a seven book series.

If the Narnia books were based on the seven planets of medieval cosmology, which planet was Magician's Nephew based on? The story of creation complete with apple features in it but the really arresting and most "creative" central section deals with parallel universes reached via pools of water, some of which are dying and others, like Narnia itself, waiting to have life breathed upon them. The two protagonists, a boy and a girl, are clearly Adam and Eve, the first humans to enter Narnia apart from the "magician" himself, a cunning and amoral scientist. [The wardrobe incidentally was hewn from a tree that grew from the apple core brought back from Narnia and was later blown down in a storm].

It could be that the books are based on the book of Genesis rather than on planets, tracing the Narnian life cycle from "In the beginning" through the story of the Flood (Dawn Treader) and so forth up to the conquest of the Promised Land (Last Battle).
Send private message
Hatty
Site Admin

In: Berkshire
View user's profile
Reply with quote

The 'line' from Land's End to the east coast of Norfolk shows Avebury slap bang in the centre and ending in the town of 'Hope' (that's my reading anyway).

The line would appear to be replete with Michaels to the west of Avebury but conspicuously devoid of him or his colleagues to the east, yet this is not a strictly accurate picture for if you looked at a map of England you would discover a veritable host of Michael and George churches in indiscriminate locations of which some happen to be on or near the St Michael Line.

Church spires, with or without the name Michael attached, are evidently of immense importance in fixing a point in the landscape.
Send private message
Mick Harper
Site Admin

In: London
View user's profile
Reply with quote

shows Avebury slap bang in the centre

Ah, but that's not why Avebury is there. Try moving it northwards... what would happen to the Dragon Line?
Send private message
Mick Harper
Site Admin

In: London
View user's profile
Reply with quote

It might be a more logical system if cup-and-ring marks signalled a particular route

The reason this is not possible is because the megalithic system is not a route marker it is a navigation system. Let's take a specific example from your map. You start at Brentor and you wish to get to the flint mines in Norfolk.

First off you are not at Brentor, which is the top of a mountain. You are in the valley below Brentor but close enough to see that the previous megalithic mark and Brentor itself signals towards the next megalithic mark (because all three are in a straight line).

So you know where you need to get next. But hold on, there is no road. There is however a local road going from Brentor village to some other village that is roughly in the right direction. So you take it. All long distance travel before a supra-authority like the Romans is of this nature. It is always slightly hit-and-miss.

It is true (I suppose) that 'the best route' could be signalled (for all I know it was) but the megalithic system is designed to last indefinitely and require very little upkeep. So the 'best route' may be the best for a drover with a herd of sheep but not a peddlar. And a particular village may not want constant intrusions from outsiders, though it is my guess that then as now places will vie for the benefits of through-traffic. The philosophy (at any rate west of Avebury) would seem to be: 'Go in that direction, bub, but follow your own instincts.'

Generally speaking, locals will always know the way. The cup-and-ring/spiral maze system is just an easy, installed-once, inspected every ten years, fail-safe.

However, it does fall down at one place: your destination. If you miss, let's say, Avebury because you are too far south, and walk straight past it, how can the cup-and-ring/spiral maze system help you?
Send private message
Hatty
Site Admin

In: Berkshire
View user's profile
Reply with quote

The standing stones at Avebury would be an even better marker than a steeple. If the cup-and-ring and spiral signs are only found west of Avebury, it would be clear to the lost traveller that he'd missed his turn-off.

You have to bear in mind that the Ridgeway, which runs north east from Overton Hill by Avebury stretched as far as Hunstanton in Norfolk; the trail ends officially at Ivinghoe Beacon, the highest point in the Chilterns, near Tring in Buckinghamshire and once started at Lyme Regis but the Salisbury Plains are now out of bounds due to army manoeuvres. Ivinghoe is visible a long way off thanks to the war memorial on its summit; in fact come to think of it Ibstone, another high point, has a large stone in the middle of the common marking the boundary between Bucks and Oxfordshire.
Send private message
Mick Harper
Site Admin

In: London
View user's profile
Reply with quote

The standing stones at Avebury would be an even better marker than a steeple.

Pfah! You can't see a standing stone from a hundred yards away.

If the cup-and-ring and spiral signs are only found west of Avebury, it would be clear to the lost traveller that he'd missed his turn-off.

Pfah! How far would you walk looking for a sign before you concluded there were no signs? No, you have to have an in-gathering system, north and south of Avebury. It's right there in the literature, just look for the familiar tell-tale phrase "Nobody as yet knows their purpose."
Send private message
Hatty
Site Admin

In: Berkshire
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Ah, but that's not why Avebury is there. Try moving it northwards... what would happen to the Dragon Line?

I don't see any specific connection with Avebury and the Dragon Line apart from the obvious importance of the place which could be simply due to its being the start of a main (the main) thoroughfare snaking for a hundred miles or so across the chalk uplands.

No, you have to have an in-gathering system, north and south of Avebury. It's right there in the literature, just look for the familiar tell-tale phrase "Nobody as yet knows their purpose."

Standing stones may have been the equivalent of road-signs pointing to Avebury, which is where the great west-east road begins.
Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, ... 41, 42, 43  Next

Jump to:  
Page 2 of 43

MemberlistThe Library Index  FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group