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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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Bogs
OakeyDokey wrote:
| The most abundantly used salt was NaCl common table salt and was obtained in ancient times by sea evaporation (sea salt or rock salt) in special ponds (I've actually seen this in Fuertaventura in the Canary Islands) or salt springs. Modern times are different: we mine for ancient sea bed salt. |
Reading this I thought....is there any chance those "bogs" in northern Europe in which those"bog men" were found are unnatural?
I would imagine that the salt-making process produced a lot of pollution and by-products, not to mention high-saline run-off. Might we expect some of these industrial sites to still be in evidence today? After all, the garbage is often more durable than the product -- or the factory.
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Oakey Dokey
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Two more uses for salt in ancient times:
Soap and glass production
Soap:
Spread well burnt ashes from good logs over woven wickerwork made of withies, or on a thin-meshed strong sieve, and gently pour hot water on them so that it goes through drop by drop. Collect the lye in a clean pot underneath and strain it two or three times through the same ashes, so that the lye becomes strong and colored. This is the first lye of the soapmaker. After it has clarified well let it cook, and when it has boiled for a long time and has begun to thicken, add enough oil and stir very well. Now, if you want to make the lye with lime, put a little good lime in it, but if you want it to be without lime, let the above-mentioned lye boil by itself until it is cooked down and reduced to thickness. Afterwards, allow to cool in a suitable place whatever has remained there of the lye or the watery stuff. This clarification is called the second lye of the soapmaker. Afterwards, work [the soap] with a little spade for 2, 3 or 4 days, so that it coagulates well and is de-watered, and lay it aside for use. If you want to make [your soap] out of tallow the process will be the same, though instead of oil put in well-beaten beef tallow and add a little wheat flour according to your judgment, and let them cook to thickness, as was said above. Now put some salt in the second lye that I mentioned and cook it until it dries out, and this will be the afronitrum for soldering.
-- Mappae Clavicula, ca. 1130 AD
Glass is made from the 'lye' or alkali and lime and sand added.
More on soap. The Samsonites (or rather a Roman tale) attribute the discovery of soap to the goddess Athena. Sacrifices made to her in her temple produced fats and ashes which would run down the hill and into the nearby river, women washing their clothes in that particular part of the river noticed their clothes became very clean, so was soap born. Nice story I thought.
And
'Soap [Sapo] is also good, an invention of the Gallic provinces for making the hair red. It is made from suet and ash, the best is from beech ash and goat suet, in two kinds, thick and liquid, both being used among the Germans, more by men than by women."
Attributed to Pliny the elder.
The fact he mentions it being either thick/solid and liquid says he's telling the truth to me.
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Komorikid
In: Gold Coast, Australia
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I read somewhere that in ancient times salt was used in the smelting process when separating gold from the other impurities that usually come with it such as lead and silver.
I found the text but I don't have the original reference notes so I can't tell you what publication it comes from.
Like almost all-raw gold, the metal the people of Sardis panned for in the Pactolus and other nearby rivers came mixed with silver and traces of copper. The new evidence, Dr. Ramage and Dr. Craddock said, shows how the Lydians placed the raw material in small bowl-shaped hearths in the ground and, fanning hot coals with bellows, heated it in combination with lead to remove the trace metals. Then the remaining material, mixed with common salt, was subjected to prolonged heating in earthenware vessels until the gold was completely separated from the silver
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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| Now the Chinese have a pretty sophisticated alchemical tradition of their own, plus there's the Silk Road, |
'Ere, look.
Silk, according to OED, relates to OE sioloc, seolec, seolc, ON silki, Russ. Å¡elku, Lith. zilka, OPruss. silkas; from or cognate with L sericum, sericus, Gk serikos; Seres being "the inhabitants of the Far Eastern countries from which silk reached Europe overland during ancient times; the Chinese and Tibetans."
Technical jargon is Latinesque, like 'sericeous' for silken.
{Notice that 'series' and 'serial' mean continuous, like a silken thread, the longest known natural fibre (like half a mile). Also note that OED says the origin of 'serif' is uncertain, even though a serif is a continuation of a stroke from one letter to or towards the next.}
So, here again, we have an R in Latin/Greek where others put an L, which would suggest that the Latin R was "flicked", as it were, almost rolled... much the same as an L, lightly pronounced the same way.
Since silk = long and continuous, the commodity is just as likely to have derived its name from the Silk Road as the other way around?
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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Oakey wrote: | Salt has some curious properties in relation to human senses... |
This is probably all we need to know. Gold and gems have until recently had no practical use, but they have been valued because they're hard to get and they have unusual properties that suggest themselves to us as intrinsically valuable. Salt is similar. You dig it out of the rock and yet you can eat it... it has these unusual culinary properties... we like it... it doesn't kill us. It's a consumable, but luckily there is plenty more to be had: that makes for a voluminous trade.
It's not a necessity (we went without it for n-million years) but, as with everything else, once we had it it enabled new practices and lifestyles. It became an essential by way of a cultural imperative, so we can skip the discussion of biological factors.
1911 Encyclopedia: Waitz holds with some show of probability that the Franks represent the ancient Istaevones of Tacitus, the Alamanni and the Saxons representing the Herminones and the Ingaevones.
Of all these Frankish tribes one especially was to become prominent, the tribe of the Salians... As to the origin of the name, it was long held to be derived from the river Yssel or Saal. It is more probable, however, that it arose from the fact that the Salians for a long period occupied the shores of the salt sea" |
Nuff said!
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Wireloop
In: Detroit
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Tacitus,Germania:
"In their ancient songs, their only way of remembering or recording the past they celebrate an earth-born god Tuisco, and his son Mannus, as the origin of their race, as their founders. To Mannus they assign three sons, from whose names, they say, the coast tribes are called Ingaevones; those of the interior, Herminones; all the rest, Istaevones." (notice the "line of divinity" of the 3 sons)
The AngloSaxon Chronicle:
"They described the worthlessness of the Britons, and the richness of the land. They then sent them greater support. Then came the men from three powers of Germany; the Old Saxons, the Angles, and the Jutes. From the Jutes are descended the men of Kent, the Wightwarians (that is, the tribe that now dwelleth in the Isle of Wight), and that kindred in Wessex that men yet call the kindred of the Jutes."
Hymn to Hermes:
(English) "Muse, sing of Hermes, the son of Zeus and Maia, lord of Cyllene and Arcadia rich in flocks, the luck-bringing messenger of the immortals whom Maia bare,
(Greek) "Hermon humnei, Mousa, DioskaiMaiadoshuion, KullynesmedeontakaiArkadiaspolumelou, angelon athanataneriounion, hontekeMaia"
Personal Observations:
Jutes (settled at Kent from Jutland) = Men of Kent = Ingaevones (from Jutland)
Kent County = Margate
Angles = Angelos (Greek: angelos, a messenger) = Hermes (Greek: hermes, messenger of the gods) = Herminones
Conclusion:
Tacitus' "3 sons of Mannus" (Ingaevons, Herminones and Istaevones) could be the "3 powers" (Jutes, Angles and Old Saxons) mentioned in the AngloSaxon Chronicle. This would be in accordance with the "divine heritage" of a nation that is prevalent all throughout ancient literature. Mannus could be the equivalent to Zeus (who had Chronus as his father).
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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The Gallic Wars: "The inland part of Britain is inhabited by tribes declared in their own tradition to be indigenous to the island, the maritime part by tribes that migrated at an earlier time from Belgium to seek booty by invasion. ..."
Would we have said we were indigenes if we were Celts arrived only a handful of centuries before?
Wireloop's quote puts Jutes in Kent, the Isle of Wight [ I can make Wight = Jute without trying too hard. ] and somewhere in Wessex. The Belgae are placed in Hampshire/Wiltshire in the maps of Celtic-tribes-according-to-the-Romans I've seen. So Jutes = Belgae? Someone I spoke to recently [ who is just finishing THOBR ] said he was taught the Jutes came from the thereabouts of Holland. (Does that make megalithic Jutland more or less enigmatic?)
What if the Jutes are the Belgae and they were here since before the Romans came? What is the evidence that the Anglo-Saxons invaded at all? (A sudden influx of Germanic material influence on the Romans' departure would not be unexpected.) Could they have just become the ruling class again? They learned to write and were Christianised pretty quickly, huh? It's possible the Saxons operated the salt works before the Romans came... What if 'Anglia/Angeln/Angul' is a corruption of 'England' rather than the other way around?
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Dan wrote: | Salt-making occurred from Saxon times until the 14th century all up the lower Adur Valley [Sussex] |
Was this sea-salt or inland salt, I wonder.
| A large number of Anglo Saxon charters relate to Droitwich referred to as 'Saltwich'. The presence of salt making furnaces near the River Salwarpe are confirmed in charters dated 716 and 717. |
This is key. Droitwich was the centre of the world's biggest chemical industry from the 18th Century onwards because of its underground salt-dome. And since it is way inland, the presumption must be that they were mining it. Or is there some surface brine procedure?
Salt is becoming recognised more and more as one of the real movers and shakers (geddit) of early history. There's a book about it I read somewhere. The point being that it is the ONLY human necessity that can't be readily gained from the local environment; once you add in its preservative qualities you've got a ready market more or less anywhere you go.
| 13?? 60 saxon miners came to Wieliczka and built new salt mines. |
This is a bit late but it's interesting that Saxons are still the salt-specialists.
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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| And since it is way inland, the presumption must be that they were mining it. Or is there some surface brine procedure? |
"Brine springs" I think they say.
I've got to go over that "Why did the Anglo-Saxons not become more British?" thing again. I think it suggests England was taken easily -- well, quickly; then a struggle to wrest the West Country from the Welsh*; and Wales wasn't taken at all (until 13xx). Were the A-S content once they'd taken Droitwich-ish?
Domesday says the Saxon-era salt works were on the east coast; but it CAN'T be argued that the Saxons started it, because the Iron Age salt works were already concentrated there. Maybe they had to invade to establish their monopoly because we were already self-sufficient in salt.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| "Brine springs" I think they say. |
Yes, of course, you're quite right. But try this on for size. Presently they squirt giant steam hoses down the holes and then evaporate off the slurry. Presumably in ancient times the technology was simpler but it would still take expertise outside the range of local knowledge. So supposing "Saxons" were itinerant salt-technologists just the same way as we know metalsmiths and masons were, complete with funny handshakes and (let's hope) funny language.
| I've got to go over that "Why did the Anglo-Saxons not become more British?" thing again. I think it suggests England was taken easily -- well, quickly; then a struggle to wrest the West Country from the Welsh*; and Wales wasn't taken at all (until 13xx). Were the A-S content once they'd taken Droitwich-ish? |
I think it's fair comment to say that the "British" were patsies for anyone who took the bother. After all we know the Belgae, the Romans, the A/S, the Danes and the Normans (plus in all probably the Celts viz place-names in Eastern Britain) were able to occupy the English-speaking areas whereas the Cornish, the Welsh and the Picts were able variously to put up much more of a struggle.
| Domesday says the Saxon-era salt works were on the east coast; but it CAN'T be argued that the Saxons started it, because the Iron Age salt works were already concentrated there. Maybe they had to invade to establish their monopoly because we were already self-sufficient in salt. |
I nearly see what you're driving at but surely we don't know what the situation was at any relevant time. For all we know Droitwich was a Saxon operation during Roman times. In any case, presumably east coast (and Sussex, come to that) are expensive but economic because of their respective distance from Droitwich. Hey, what about if the "Saxon Shore" which IS a Roman term [Litus Saxonicum] refers to where salt is made. Bit of a long shot that one...
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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I see Litus Saxonicum applies in France, too: Loire-Atlantique, where they also make salt -- but you already knew that, right?
NB. I've just been told "Saxa is a trade name originating from Seddon's Middlewich Salt Company. It comes from the Latin word for rocks - 'Saxa' is alliterate with Sal or salt."
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| I see Litus Saxonicum applies in France, too: Loire-Atlantique, where they also make salt -- but you already knew that, right? |
No, I didn't! Surely then that's definitive because the Anglo-Saxons certainly didn't get that far. However I do know a little about the salt industry in these parts because they (and the Vendee generally) keep popping up as a thorn in the side of the Parisian government. (The Gabelle--is that right, the salt tax anyway--is for some reason a weirdly dominating influence on French policy through the ages...the plot thickens nicely.)
| NB. I've just been told "Saxa is a trade name originating from Seddon's Middlewich Salt Company. It comes from the Latin word for rocks - 'Saxa' is alliterate with Sal or salt." |
Again a clincher. If Seddon's, who are presumably steeped in the industry, associate the word completely naturally with salt then it must be so. But the rock-salt connection now becomes important since our two Saxon shores plus Droitwich are all non-rock. We're going to have to dive into the rock-salt industry of the upper Elbe. To help you in this, did you see the BBC-2 programme on looted Nazi art treasures? They took them to a set of caverns "hundreds of feet high" in Austria which were all that were left of "a salt mine worked since Roman times".
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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How can you be so sure the Anglo-Saxons didn't get as far as the Loire/ Atlantic coast when we have already asserted that they could have been the founders/operators of the British salt industry in the Iron Age?
What does a Latin grammarian say about saxum <--> saxonicum?
"Which came first the Saxon or the Saxon Shore...?"
Is salt associated with rocks, or rocks with salt?
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| How can you be so sure the Anglo-Saxons didn't get as far as the Loire/Atlantic coast when we have already asserted that they could have been the founders/operators of the British salt industry in the Iron Age? "Which came first the Saxon or the Saxon Shore...?" |
Everybody thinks the Saxon Shore got its name because the Saxons used to raid it; we're trying to establish the name means "coast of the salt-makers". Since nobody believes that the Saxons used to raid the Aquitanian coast, it follows that the name must refer to salt-makers rather than Saxons.
| What does a Latin grammarian say about saxum <--> saxonicum? Is salt associated with rocks, or rocks with salt? Delve into the rock-salt industry? |
This is going to be a bitch because all the lexicologists are going to come up with Saxon explanations....still, I have enormous faith in you. But one angle (geddit?) is that the etymology is "rock" and that Saxons are itinerant miners as per metalsmiths, masons etc. Who turned their hand to salt when the locals learned the tricks. (After all, unlike the other "crafts" mining needs a lot of local labour who would eventually learn the tricks...bit speculative...)
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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| Since nobody believes that the Saxons used to raid the Aquitanian coast, it follows that the name must refer to salt-makers rather than Saxons. |
Ich versteh als du meinst.
| What does a Latin grammarian say about saxum <--> saxonicum? |
Are the endings strictly correct for "rock" and "people of the rocks", "to do with rocks" or things like that? Or does saxonicum look like an adjective derived from the preexisting name "Saxon"?
| But one angle (geddit?) is that the etymology is "rock" and that Saxons are itinerant miners as per metalsmiths, masons etc. Who turned their hand to salt when the locals learned the tricks. (After all, unlike the other "crafts" mining needs a lot of local labour who would eventually learn the tricks...bit speculative...) |
Hmm, interesting. Saxons aka Elbers, then. I wonder which way they went, up or down the river. Angles were simply the Saxons/Elbers who lived in the "angled" bit of Schleswig? Maybe they ended up doing little more than controlling the waterway between Saxony and Angul, if there were no good mines or saltings along the way. Or maybe it was all just out-and-out Elber territory. (If they were one people, we needn't postulate the artificiality of A-S. Does it look more like a natural language than Latin, say?)
Of course, Viking < vik = creek, inlet = wick = wich = salting.
And wick = village, vicus.
The ONLY towns/villages we [or the powers that be] were interested in at one time were saltings?
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