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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Grant wrote: | | The fact that it was the Russkies who actually won the war for us... |
No chestnut of World War Two history is in greater need of revision than this one.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Ooh, I await this one with pleasure but we won't be hearing any more on the subject. Ishmael is too frightened of me.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| Hatty wrote: | Dunkirk: The Forgotten Heroes was aired on Channel 4 on Sunday evening with accompanying blurb, viz: The untold story of the 51st Highland Division, who were left in France when Dunkirk was evacuated, and ordered to fight on against Hitler's war machine, in the face of overwhelming odds..
The title is intentionally misleading since the whole point is the 51st Highlanders weren't at Dunkirk but along the coast westwards, at St Valery. Even the Guidance Warning refers to Dunkirk, "With scenes of the war-torn beaches at Dunkirk'.
You can watch via the Ch 4 catch up https://www.channel4.com/programmes/dunkirk-the-forgotten-heroes
It features former Highlanders who'd been POWs after the division's surrender in 1940. James Holland, a historian who regularly presents Second World War documentaries, had posted a reminder about the programme on Twitter so I took the opportunity to question the decision to surrender and got taken thoroughly to task by someone called Ian Forbes.
HV: General Fortune surrendered ‘after some artillery shells landed near him'. There was absolutely no need to. In fact it was a court martial offence in the circumstances surely.
IF: He surrendered because his Division was being slaughtered and surrender was the only option or they would have been all wiped out
HV: The 51st Div had the town of St Valery to withdraw into, a place that could have been defended indefinitely irrespective of ammunition, supplies etc.
IF: St Valery could not have been defended indefinitely. It was a bottleneck and the Germans had superior high ground on the cliffs overlooking the town. It would have been a killing ground. I have been to St Valery frequently and there is no way that town could have been defended
HV: Any town in the world can be defended indefinitely by twelve thousand resolute troops, much less a port town with the largest navy in the world at its back and the second largest air force twenty minutes flying time away. Though I concede these were not very resolute troops
IF: Learn your history, you are an idiot |
I would have replied saying I'm sure you're right but am curious to learn which part of my answer was idiotic. The exchange ended here because
You are blocked from following @ForbesIrforbes and viewing
@ForbesIrforbes's Tweets. | |
We discussed this on the Comments on AUHOTSWW
I haven't budged from the idea that the Brits and, yes, even the French were too resolute. This is why they were overrun.. The mythology of the Germans inventing Blitzkrieg is an attempt to explain away this uncomfortable fact. Despite the overwhelming evidence, ie the appalling performance of the BEF, we continued in this vein for some while.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | Ooh, I await this one with pleasure but we won't be hearing any more on the subject. Ishmael is too frightened of me. |
I don't dispute your assessment of the instrumental role played by Russia in the defeat of Japan. But what I am sure of is the casualty figures for the Eastern Front are total fabrication. The Russians vastly exaggerated the capacity of their military to sustain losses.
There are no special cases. Casualty figures on the Eastern Front were comparable to those on all other fronts of the war.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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And you can bet that Russian Soldiers turned tail and fled about as quickly as did the British and French.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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The Holocaust also is mostly Russian (Communist) propaganda. Note that all the gas chambers are in Soviet-occupied Eastern Europe.
Interestingly, I read Eli Wiesel's Night and the most horrific events he describes all took place towards, at or after the end of the war. Very odd for a book about the Holocaust. Millions of survivors believe in the holocaust because they heard other survivors profess belief in it; yet actual witnesses to the industrial gassing of Jews are surprisingly few.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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But what I am sure of is the casualty figures for the Eastern Front are total fabrication. The Russians vastly exaggerated the capacity of their military to sustain losses.
There are no special cases. Casualty figures on the Eastern Front were comparable to those on all other fronts of the war. |
You're right to cast doubt on casualty figures which are only estimates and vary considerably. It's also likely the overall number of Russian deaths have conflated fighting losses with prisoner deaths. There is no argument surely with the huge numbers of POWs that died of neglect, on both sides, which actually have been documented.
No doubt America prefers to downplay Russia's role. In whose interest is it to upgrade the Russian losses? Apart from the advantage to Russia, Germany would naturally agree with the mainstream estimate of Russian numbers. Not unjustifiably, of course, because there was enough left of the Russian army even after political purges and Eastern Front losses to defeat Japan's armed forces (admittedly smaller and more depleted) in '45.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Blimey, the goal posts have been moved to a different ball park.
| But what I am sure of is the casualty figures for the Eastern Front are total fabrication. The Russians vastly exaggerated the capacity of their military to sustain losses. |
I don't doubt it. They're a bunch of lying bastards.
| There are no special cases. Casualty figures on the Eastern Front were comparable to those on all other fronts of the war. |
I don't doubt it. It's just the Eastern Front was, maybe, ten times the size of any other front.
| And you can bet that Russian Soldiers turned tail and fled about as quickly as did the British and French. |
A bit quicker actually. But unlike the British and the French they had sufficient space and sufficient fresh cannon-fodder to turn the tide eventually.
| The Holocaust also is mostly Russian (Communist) propaganda. Note that all the gas chambers are in Soviet-occupied Eastern Europe. |
I didn't know that the Holocaust had to be factored into arguments about which country was most responsible for winning the war but anyway here goes. Since the vast preponderance of Jews lived in areas that after the war were administered by the Russians it would have been perverse of the Germans to site the camps anywhere else. However, if it will assist, I might say that the only camp that (as far as I know, I'm no expert) was a) in the west b) held large numbers of Jews was c) Theresienstadt which was d) a place where substantial numbers of Jews did indeed survive. Though I couldn't vouch for the numbers that did not.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Hatty wrote: | | No doubt America prefers to downplay Russia's role. |
America? What is America? There is no singular entity one can identify as the USA. America was and remains under the powerful influence of leftists. The same leftists who, at America's paper of record, The New York Times, covered up the Holodomor, were only too eager to spread Soviet causualty figures without question. And immediately after the war---when "History" was being manufactured---Russia was officially a US Ally.
| In whose interest is it to upgrade the Russian losses? |
Russia's. Clearly. They've peacocked their supposed pivotal role in World War Two ever since.
| ...Germany would naturally agree with the mainstream estimate of Russian numbers. |
If it wasn't for their rule parroting and amplifying Soviet propaganda, modern Germany could hardly be said to have a culture at all.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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Suddenly realized last night, the same rules apply to the death toll at Dresden! Dresden is a classic special case. No other German city suffered such a calamity.
Dresden was occupied by the Soviets who were interested in providing anti-war activists in the West with demoralizing anti-war propaganda.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Except for Hamburg, in the American sector.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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What are the casualty figures? Never even heard of the Hamburg incident. Dresden sure looks like a classic special case to me.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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40,000 for Hamburg. Up to half a million alleged for Dresden.
And what do you know? Turns out many historians are indeed suspicious of the Dresden figures! Newton's Hammer works once again!
oh yeah. Way to be supportive of a novel hypothesis there. Anyway. Seems I didn't need the encouragement. I was just right.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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So the actual figures for Dresden may be as low as 18,000! Makes the Hamburg bombing look now like the special case. I say that one's up next for downward revision! Somebody's likely monkeyed with those numbers too. Probably for some political purpose.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | Except for Hamburg, in the American sector. |
American sector eh? And who bombed Hamburg to ashes? Don't tell me. I haven't yet looked. But I'm betting it was the British!
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