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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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Boreades
In: finity and beyond
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Well, you might say that, and I'm in no position to positively prove/disprove that. That's why I said "as reported to us by Titus Flavius Josephus" ;-)
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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You have to be a bit careful with history.
Take a look at this stater of Vercingetorix. In his Life of Caesar, Plutarch renders the name as Vergentorix.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vercingetorix#/media/
File:Vercingetorix_stat%C3%A8re_MAN.jpg
Our Gaulish warrior looks a bit girly.
When Caesar proclaimed victory over the Gauls he dedicated this to
Venus Genotrix
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_Genetrix_(sculpture)#/
media/File:Venus_Genitrix_N367.jpg
Hey I cant prove it but at least I am trying to use evidence.....rather than just plonking it down, and if it annoys the French why not?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_(mythology)#Epithets_of_Venus
Its a Venus. Maybe.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Roger Stone wrote: | | ...Galatians 1:18 "Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas, and tarried with him fifteen days; but other of the Apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother." He's writing about real people and events on Earth, surely? |
The Apostles are real people. But these are akin to Bishops and Cardinals. Brother of the Lord is a title, like "Pope." Of course, Christians believe that they are all brothers and sisters of Christ--adopted children of God. But James the Brother of Jesus appears to have been the highest authority among Christians.
Paul is a Gnostic. Jesus was indeed crucified---but crucified in heaven, not in any place on Earth.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Boreades wrote: | | What we now call Christianity is possibly Josephus's reinvention... |
And your evidence for this fantasy?
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Wile E. Coyote wrote: | | I find it a bit strange that anyone thinks that St Paul existed. Zero evidence. |
St. Paul existed in the sense that someone (or someones) authored the letters attributed to "St. Paul." However, the character, "St. Paul" who appears in the book of Acts, is no more historical than Jesus.
Awesome info at the link you provided!! Thanks so much for that.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Wile E. Coyote wrote: | Take a look at this stater of Vercingetorix. In his Life of Caesar, Plutarch renders the name as Vergentorix.....
Its a Venus. Maybe. |
Brilliant! Wow. Stunned by this.
Venus Genetrix, meaning "Venus the Mother".
I am reminded of a story concerning Caesar that he had a dream in which he raped his mother. This was interpreted as meaning that he would conquer the whole world.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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Gather round.
Let us pray.
The Acts of the Apostles Chapter 27, verse 9-13.
"9 Now when much time was spent, and when sailing was now dangerous, because the fast was now already past, Paul admonished them.
10 And said unto them Sirs, I perceive that this voyage will be with hurt and much damage, not only with the lading of the ship, but also of our lives.
11 Nevertheless, the Centurion believed the master and the owner of the ship, more than those things which were spoken by Paul.
12 And because the haven was not commodious to winter in, the more part advised to depart thence also, if by any means they might attain Phenice, and there to winter; which is an haven of Crete, and lieth towards the south west and north west.
13 And when the south wind blew softly, supposing that they had obtained their purpose, loosing thence, they sailed close by Crete."
Paul (Apollonius) is going all nautical on us. Whatever can it mean?
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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For gods sakes tell us.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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This is the task we were set.
| Mick Harper wrote: | That is why I urged you to consider more closely Hatty's Oleron posting.
| The Rolls of Oleron (Roles d'Oleron, also known as the "Judgments of Oleron" and the "Rules of Oleron") were the first formal statement of "maritime" or "admiralty" laws in northwestern Europe. |
Oleron is, as per Hatty, an important Megalithic centre in the Bay of Biscay ie presumptively going back to the Bronze Age.
| They were promulgated by Eleanor of Aquitaine in about 1160, after her return from the second crusade having accompanied her first husband Louis VII. They were based upon the ancient Lex Rhodia, which had governed Mediterranean commerce since before the 1st century. |
So we are asked to believe that this vital set of laws disappeared for a thousand years.
| She likely became acquainted with them while at the court of King Baldwin III of Jerusalem, who had adopted them, as the Maritime Assizes of the Kingdom of Jerusalem. |
And several thousand miles away. Note though that according to TME the 'Normans' of Palestine are Megalithics.
| They are named for the island of Oleron |
Now we've travelled another several thousand miles.
| since the island was the site of the maritime court associated with the most powerful seamen's guild of the Atlantic. |
Oh? What seamen's guild's that then? I thought it was royalty -- you know, Baldwin I and Eleanour of Aquitaine -- that was in charge. Apparently not, it's all down to dirty matelots feathering their own nest. Of course, TME claims these are all the same organisation.
| She promulgated them in England |
Another thousand miles.
| at the very end of the twelfth century having been granted viceregal powers of England while King Richard I was on the third crusade. |
... well, sort of. She must be eighty-odd by now and had spent the previous thirty years in prison.
| They were published subsequently in French and English. The English King Henry VIII published them as "The judgment of the sea, of Masters, of Mariners, and Merchants, and all their doings." The Rolls greatly influenced the English Black Book of the Admiralty. |
Oh, so they've disappeared again. Not to worry though, this time it's only four hundred years. |
Please heed the following......
| Mick Harper wrote: | | They were based upon the ancient Lex Rhodia, which had governed Mediterranean commerce since before the 1st century. |
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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So who wrote the Lex Rhodia??
The answer is disappointing......
As you might expect no copy of the great Lex Rhodia has ever been discovered...
Yet as we know from Mick's post....Rhodian maritime law is purported to have survived until the Roman Empire, and was than adopted by the Romans. This according to orthodoxy later developed into the "The Rolls of Oleron (Roles d'Oleron, also known as the "Judgments of Oleron" and the "Rules of Oleron") were the first formal statement of "maritime" or "admiralty" laws in northwestern Europe." These later developed, so we are led to believe into the Admiralty Black Books.....
But it's a dead end, we have no evidence for the Lex Rhodia....
Except the Lex Rhodia is explicitly mentioned in Book 2, Title 7 of the Roman law text, Opinions of .............Julius Paulus (circa 235):
A famous Roman lawyer of unknown origin.
Julius Paulus.....eh?
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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It would appear the Romans were the first to write down the mysterious Rhodian laws but then they would wouldn't they. This cannot be seen as proof that there were no pre-existing laws governing cargo ships, in fact it would be ludicrous to suppose traders could avoid any kind of regulation. Unwritten laws, or a constitution, are valid legally but are discussed and revisited countless times which seems to have been the case with these Sea Laws.
This site also accepts the Lex Rhodia could be a myth but quotes a legal historian named Scott arguing for the likely antiquity of such maritime laws http://www.duhaime.org/LawMuseum/LawArticle-383/Lex-Rhodia-The-Ancient-Ancestor-of-Maritime-Law--800-BC.aspx
| "This equitable principle formulated by the greatest sailors and traders of antiquity; inherited by the Rhodians, a people scarcely inferior to them in maritime skill and enterprise; and transmitted to posterity by Roman authority and example survives in localities where one would least expect to encounter it. The Lex Rhodia de jactu, which the Romans borrowed from the Phoenicians, is now in great observance among the tribes of the Sahara as the customary mode of distributing the losses incurred by caravans crossing the desert between the company owning the camels, or what in railway language would be called the plant, and the passengers or owners of goods. " |
The Rolls of Oleron seem to be partly, or mainly, concerned with the wine trade between Bordeaux and England (and port wine from Portugal to England?). It is possible that this was a relatively recent development, perhaps to do with the Duchy of Aquitaine being a possession of the English crown, and took its cue as it were from wine-carrying practices in ports like Marseilles and other Mediterranean ports.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Whatever dates are assigned to the Laws, it's immediately obvious that both Rhodes and Oleron were greatly involved in maritime commerce affairs.
The Michael-Apollo line passes to the north-east of Rhodes though whether such a line exists is contentious (St Michael high places are always of interest but in this case they're far enough apart to be useless markers). Be that as it may, Rhodes was a trading centre with Phoenician and Byzantine links and a famously colossal land/sea-mark.
Oleron was the site of an important maritime court. It looks like it would have been a tidal causewayed island but in any case was part of the Spain-Brittany-Cornwall nexus as discussed in the megalithic thread.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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Thanks H.
The five meager provisions which have survived according to Book 2, Title 7 of the Roman law text, Opinions of .............Julius Paulus (circa 235) concern emergency cargo jettisoning .... if your boat gets into trouble and you have to throw some cargo overboard, what happens? Is it tough luck on the merchant whose cargo is lost, so that the ship is saved, or should all share in the loss?
| Hatlink wrote: |
"It is provided by the Lex Rhodia that if merchandise is thrown overboard for the purpose of lightening a ship, the loss is made good by the assessment of all which is made for the benefit of all.
"If after a ship has been lightened by throwing the merchandise overboard, it should be lost, and the merchandise of others should be recovered by divers, it has been settled that he who threw his property overboard for the purpose of saving the ship will be entitled to an account of the same.
"Where either the ship, or a mast is lost in a storm the passengers are not liable to contribution, unless the vessel was saved through the passengers themselves cutting down the mast to insure their own preservation.
"Where, for the purpose of lightening a ship, merchandise is thrown into a boat and lost, it is established that the loss shall be made good by the assessment of the property which remained safe in the ship. If, however, the ship should be lost, no account should be taken of the boat which was saved, or of the merchandise it may have contained.
"Contribution by assessment should be made where property has been thrown into the sea, and the ship has been saved." |
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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We have had a brief look at Paulus lets go back to (St) Paul......
| The Acts of the Apostles Chapter 27, verse 9-13. wrote: |
"9 Now when much time was spent, and when sailing was now dangerous, because the fast was now already past, Paul admonished them.
10 And said unto them Sirs, I perceive that this voyage will be with hurt and much damage, not only with the lading of the ship, but also of our lives.
11 Nevertheless, the Centurion believed the master and the owner of the ship, more than those things which were spoken by Paul.
12 And because the haven was not commodious to winter in, the more part advised to depart thence also, if by any means they might attain Phenice, and there to winter; which is an haven of Crete, and lieth towards the south west and north west.
13 And when the south wind blew softly, supposing that they had obtained their purpose, loosing thence, they sailed close by Crete." |
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