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Is You Being Served? (Linguistics)
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Ishmael wrote:

ץוק

And you say it means "pin"?

Fascinating.


I forgot to mention that the symbol "y" in Greek is pronounced as the English "n".

piy = pin.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Leon wrote:
Thou'st shot thy Bolt wide of the mark, methinks.


Maybe.

But my intention is only to show strange patterns that may cast doubt on the official story.

Orthodox history tells us the English alphabet evolved organically. Yet somehow `p`ended up as letter number 16 in a set of symbols exactly 26 letters long.

Moreover, the Englsih Alphabet consists of a series of alphabets arranged sequentially.

The first set of symbols are those used to represent the musical scale. A complete set, beginning at A and ending a G.

H -- or Hash -- is a repetition of the letter A (exactly where A would repeat from octave to octave). The H stands for A-Zone or Atom -- it is the A that follows the first separation. So the second octave begins with Alpha (in the form of H) and ends with Omega: The letter O. Alpha and Omega. A complete sequence.

P then follows, dividing the first two sequences from the rest of the alphabet by the golden ratio.

Oh. Some further esoterica.

Identify the English King whose symbol was the overlapping H and A -- the octave markers.
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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Curiously I am writing a piece for the Megalithic book which suggests that alphabets and England are not necessarily as far apart as everybody thinks. I'll post it up sequentially in bite-sized crispy codpieces.
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Mick Harper
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Thus, if you do not wish to move up the Michael Line but wish to get to a source of tin then the Hermit can tell you the way. But here is an interesting point: since you have arrived from abroad and speak God-knows-what-language, how is the Hermit going to communicate with you. It is true that he can probably guide you rather broadly using signs and perhaps the universal language of leather compasses but then, how did you tell him you wanted a tin mine? Yes, yes, you're an experienced trader and can say 'Where's the tin' in twelve languages but a much more exciting method of intercourse is in prospect.

Invention of Alphabets Part I

One of the great unaddressed mysteries of history concerns the emergence of alphabets.in the second millennium BC. The mystery is why historians (and for that matter linguists) pay so little attention to it. According to them, it's just one of those things that happen. So very natural, even inevitable. Except that it isn't.
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Mick Harper
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Invention of Alphabets Part II

The basic problem lies in the fact that you cannot alphabetise languages. Yes, I know you think you are reading an alphabetised language but hold fast while the actual difficulties are itemised. For instance, let us alphabetise that last phrase: actual difficulties are itemised. But this time, forget your alphabet, forget you can alphabetise languages, and decide just what you'll need for those four words were you sitting down to alphabetise English for the very first time: that first a in 'actual'--easy isn't it? It's a-for-apple. No, it isn't. It's a different a-sound. Not very different, the International Phonetic Alphabet makes no distinction, and English-speakers used to literacy have been eliding the two sounds for hundreds of years but still apple and actual are two different a-sounds.

It probably isn't going too far to say that every a-sound in English is unique or probably was originally unique, or at the very least there was one hell of a lot of them. Now go on to the first consonant in 'actual'. Try sounding 'actual' by using a c+t as our present alphabet urges you to do....that's right, you will sound like a fifties actress (no pun intended) reading from a script. That is no accident (no further pun intended) because, in a sense, everybody who reads English becomes an unconscious actor when speaking English. We have the word in our head, and the word on the page.

So if c+t doesn't do it, and no other combination of the existing letters will achieve fidelity, you will have to make up a new letter that means the first consonant of the word actual. So now we have twenty-seven letters in the English alphabet. That deals with the first consonant in the word 'actual' which was the very first one we came across...oh yes, and then there's the a as well...we never finished that. Would it be OK if we just put a circle over the a or perhaps an accent? As you can see, we are going to have an alphabet of...well....nobody knows but it will certainly run into thousands of letters.
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Leon



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Ishmael wrote:
my intention is only to show strange patterns that may cast doubt on the official story.


Not a bad intention. I don't understand what you're driving at with all this esoterica. Which of course is not grounds for disqualifiying it, because there's a lot I don't understand: but I'll stick with my Etruscan Gamma-Delta story, it's there to be seen, literal-minded and prosaic as that may be.

On the other hand, I found your theory of genetic levelling or averaging which you explained in a dialogue with Xerxes on the Neanderthals thread quite convincing. I wouldn't take it so far as to suppose that a genetically isolated population group levels out into some sort of mental mediocrity at the same time as an averaging of hair and eye colour and the like sets in (I'm not interpreting you as saying this, but it's the next likely conclusion for someone to come up with), but then I don't suppose either that intelligence is under genetic control or that it's something fixed at a certain level for life like eye colour.
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Mick Harper
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Invention of Alphabets Part III

With this background firmly in mind we can now return to the those most ancient of days, the time back in the fourth millenium when writing down speech began. Since there was no way of rendering an infinite number of sounds qua sounds, the rather obvious decision was made to render every word as a separate sign. Actually it was found in practice that you could get away with but a few thousand of these signs--pictograms, ideograms--but anyway the method worked admirably, lasted for a very long time (still does in Chinese of course) and wandered very far across the earth's surface.

The principle was broken by only one, very tiny, situation that could not be met by this otherwise robust system. How did you render people's names? Did you have to invent an identikit ideogram every time? No, as some bright spark pointed out, all you had to do was treat these people's names phonetically and then simply choose common words that began with these letters, string them together and indicate what you were doing by, say, putting a cartouche round the whole thing. Problem solved.
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Ishmael


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Mick Harper wrote:
The principle was broken by only one, very tiny, situation that could not be met by this otherwise robust system. How did you render people's names? Did you have to invent an identikit ideogram every time? No, as some bright spark pointed out, all you had to do was treat these people's names phonetically and then simply choose common words that began with these letters, string them together and indicate what you were doing by, say, putting a cartouche round the whole thing. Problem solved.


Shouldn't this read, "...all you had to do was treat these people's names phonetically and then simply choose common words that resembled those sounds, string them together and indicate what you were doing by, say, putting a cartouche round the whole thing."
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Mick Harper
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No, because unless you knew the name anyway you would not be able to render the name accurately (and people do like you to get their names right). As you know this principle of "near enough" was used later on for ordinary words but that was because with ordinary words you had the sound in your head already so could guess the spelled-word, but in the case of people's names this is not possible.

Of course some people's names can be rendered by common words but how would the reader know whether he was supposed to be reading the words or the initial phonetic sounds of the words? But this does lead to a thought: the Parsees of India always use job-titles for surnames eg Indian cricketer Roy Engineer, and Parsee = Persian = Sanskrit-speakers, so maybe they made sure their names could be written in the way you suggest.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Mick Harper wrote:
No....


Then your meaning is unclear.
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Leon



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Mick Harper wrote:
Thus, if you do not wish to move up the Michael Line but wish to get to a source of tin then the Hermit can tell you the way. But here is an interesting point: since you have arrived from abroad and speak God-knows-what-language, how is the Hermit going to communicate with you.


Being as you say an experienced trader I would know that Hermits tend to be crusty old bastards suspicious of strangers and bound to tribal custom who might as easily lead me into a swamp and disappear as take me to a tin mine. And if I have managed to find out about a tin mine somewhere inland from the port I've come to with my shipment of wine, olives and groovy beautifully painted authentic Etruscan amphoras packed in straw which I'll use to feed the horses I'm hoping to get here and transport up the coast and trade for a load of fine oak, it's because I've been here before various times and have formed close contacts with local merchants, laboriously learning enough of their language to extend the conversation beyond the dozen words of commercial vocabulary used to establish basic terms of trade which I learned from my father-in-law when he introduced me into maritime commerce fifteen years ago. So before I'd even think of heading off into the mountains to look for some halfmad longbearded wildeyed Hermit I'd want to be sure of having a local interpreter certified by my port-town contacts and maybe three or four stout lads armed with some of those swords and shields I brought in trade last year and take something to grease the Hermit's palm with along with a promise given by the interpreter of further reward once the mine is located and we've talked with the miners. But, you were saying...
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Ishtar



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Mick Harper wrote:

...as some bright spark pointed out, all you had to do was treat these people's names phonetically and then simply choose common words that began with these letters, string them together and indicate what you were doing by, say, putting a cartouche round the whole thing. Problem solved.


Seems you can also represent any foreign sounds this way. For example, you could have something that says, to speak "tin" in X language use these symbols. (to say "tin" in Japanese say it as "Suzu" but they write it as 錫)

But you would still need someone to do the initial translation for the sounds, so I don't know if that would help you.
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Chad


In: Ramsbottom
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Leon wrote:
Hermits tend to be crusty old bastards suspicious of strangers... ...who might as easily lead me into a swamp... ...halfmad longbearded wildeyed Hermit I'd want to be sure of having... maybe three or four stout lads armed with some of those swords and shields...


Not a fan of hermits then?
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Mick Harper
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Leon makes the usual mistake of supposing the past is a foreign country. Hermits, servants of Hermes, are just like any other employees of trading companies. Mainly helpful. It's kind of a condition of employment.

And if I have managed to find out about a tin mine somewhere

You can't hide a tin mine.

it's because I've been here before various times and have formed close contacts with local merchants, laboriously learning enough of their language to extend the conversation beyond the dozen words of commercial vocabulary used to establish basic terms of trade which I learned from my father-in-law when he introduced me into maritime commerce fifteen years ago.

Bully for you, Meanwhile the people making money don't have time to spend an entire lifetime (actually two lifetimes if you include your father-in-law) doing all this. Is this how we do it today? No. We use Google instant interpreting which does the job fine.

maybe three or four stout lads armed with some of those swords and shields I brought in trade last year

Blimey, you do like to increase your unit costs. Is this how we do business now? No, it's more efficient to have a police force.

take something to grease the Hermit's palm with along with a promise given by the interpreter of further reward once the mine is located and we've talked with the miners.

Yes, yes, by all means if you like this kind of picaresque tourism. Me, I prolly wouldn't leave the quayside. Sailing from the Med to Cornwall and back does it for me.
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Mick Harper
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Seems you can also represent any foreign sounds this way. For example, you could have something that says, to speak "tin" in X language use these symbols. (to say "tin" in japanese say it as "Suzu" but they write it as 錫)

This is no use if you are trading with countries that are non-literate. Or for that matter people who are illiterate. Surely the majority in either case.

But you would still need someone to do the initial translation for the sounds, so I don't know if that would help you.

Yes, but that's the whole point of being a Phoenician. You are given a whole book of these words and the ability to pronounce every one of them without having to learn any of them!
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